Patapsco - Avalon: Trail building, maintenance and all that jazz

[riderx]

New thread for anything trail related and not directly related to current trail conditions.

[urbaindk]

New thread for anything trail related and not directly related to current trail conditions.

Yea!

I did a little exploring for the Charcoal / Santee reroute Saturday. There's a couple of nice little sections hiding in there. I'll post up some pictures and more details when I get a chance.

[urbaindk]

Just a couple of pictures of a possible Charcoal trail reroute coming up in October, no guaranties that any of this stuff will get used.

Natural berm just before the Sawmill Branch crossing:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/urbaindk/CharcoalRR/1_rocks_down.jpg

Potentially nice flowy single track:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/urbaindk/CharcoalRR/5_backtowardsantee.jpg

And of course, dead things:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/urbaindk/CharcoalRR/6_billysledz.jpg

[BikerMiker]

There is so much hidden stuff at Patapsco. That rock berm is a great example of stuff that has been built over the years that is just waiting to be re-opened.

mike

[old_bashturd]

Where did you see the cross? Was that placed off trail? I remember about 5-6 years ago, a biker passed away while riding on the Rockburn loop. A cross was placed next to the trail, but then it vanished. Just curious.
Thanks

[urbaindk]

Where did you see the cross? Was that placed off trail? I remember about 5-6 years ago, a biker passed away while riding on the Rockburn loop. A cross was placed next to the trail, but then it vanished. Just curious.
Thanks

PM'ed you a map.

D.

[c-dale]

I do appreciate the need for trail maintenance and the occasional re-route, and some of the work done in PVSP has been very nice.

However, (and this is just an opinion - so no flaming please), the re-route of the Rockburn Branch trail leaves a lot to be desired. The new trail is pretty much featureless. Most of the ups and downs (especially the section I called the roller-coaster) have been completely avoided, creating a very flat trail. Also, bringing in a bulldozer-like apraratus has created a very wide (not single-track at all) trail completely free of any logs, roots or rocks which generally add to the interest/fun factor of a trail as well as keeping speeds down.

Anyway, here is my suggestion - keep it tight, twisty and technical. Short go-arounds (leaving a choice for tough spots - ride it for the adventurous, or avoid it for those who can't/won't challenge themselves) seem like a sustenainable solution to keep everyone happy.

What do others think of the technical vs tame trail choices?

[BikerMiker]

This is why it's important to show up for trail maintenance, like this weekend.

The crew builds with a Dingo skid-steer walk-behind thingy. It's what IMBA Trail Solutions uses and has built most of the trail at Rosaryville.

You have to build trail that the 6-wheel Gator can get through. The corridor will narrow over the coming months so don't worry about that.

Sometimes trails get built that 'look' featureless but develop stuff over time. That's usually what happens. Give the trail a chance. It's only been a a few days. Wait for some trees to come down this Fall/Winter. We can leave most of 'em in.

The point here is that we don't get trails built the way we want them, they get built the way that requires the least amount of maintenance. That's just how it is. And coming from the perspective of a person that has spent A TON of time working on trails out there instead of riding them, this is a welcome changes. Patapsco gets a huge number of user-passes each week and needs to stand up to A TON of use by us (and others). These real-world conditions affect what type of trail you can build.

If the trails aren't hard enough for you, try riding faster. I'm not kidding. It always works for me.

I've been working on a skills area that would allow us to concentrate features in a specific area so that we wouldn't have to spread stuff out all over the park. Patapsco wasn't very interested.

mike

[riderx]

What do others think of the technical vs tame trail choices?Well, most of us prefer technical, but we don't always get what we want. The best way to have influence in what happens is to get engaged. Showing up for trail maintenance like Mike suggests is a good start, but by then most decisions have been made. Being involved in an ongoing basis is the best way to help influence what happens. And even then you sometimes don't get what you want, but your chances sure are better.

I haven't ridden the final Rockburn product but I was out when it was getting started and gave a bunch of feedback, one of which was a very strong suggestion not to get rid of the roller coaster stuff without replacing it with something similar. I also suggested more twists and turns. So, maybe I lost this one. Guess I'll find out when I ride it next.

As far as the width of the trail, it will naturally tighten back up unless people start creating cheater lines and start straightening out turns. That seems to be the biggest problem with trail widening at Patapsco.

[escatmore]

What they said with this addition...

The Rockburn Branch reroute isn't finished yet as far as I know.

The last thing you do when you're cutting trail is the 'finish work', this includes using debris to narrow up the line you just cut. It won't be a four foot wide trail when they are done.

Amy got an earful and a half from multiple users, representing multiple uses today about all the logs getting cut out, and the general dumbing down of the trail. We'll see if she goes our way. Sustainability is her first priority. That means we lose the roller coaster, sorry.

And while these guys are screaming at ya to show at a trail date. That's not the only way. You can help with the planning of those trail dates. urbaindk, helped this time around, he knew he couldn't come on the actual day and put in his time behind the scenes, preaching his way of riding and hiking directly into Amy's ear for 3 hours. I can't give you better access than that to the people in charge.

eric

[c-dale]

...
If the trails aren't hard enough for you, try riding faster. I'm not kidding. It always works for me.
...
(rest of original post is below)
mike

That's exactly the opposite of what I was advocating - tight, twisty, technical - which naturally slows speeds down.
That's the type of riding I prefer, and it would seem it also works out better in terms of co-existing with hikers.

Again, this is just my opinion, but this seems to be an appropriate forum to be heard.

[BikerMiker]

Tight, twisty and technical is fun but there ain't that much out there to make that technical.

Better sight lines allow faster speeds. There's plenty of slow-speed stuff out there, for sure and we always have Gambrill for that.

Patapsco has a great blend of Schaeffer-style stuff with enough rocky sections to evoke Gambrill riding which makes it a great place to ride.

To build technical trail, you need a rock field. You can build trails that are abrupt and slow but maintaining either open and flowing OR abrupt and slow is really something you have to do for an extended section of trail instead of open/tight/open which just confuses and frustrates people and causes turns to blow out and re-routes to make it all one way or another.

I understand your desires. I don't know if Patapsco will ever be more technical without some serious deliberative planning. I'm certainly not against you, but it seems like we have limitations to going that route.

I'm happy to provide whatever information and input I have that might help.

mike

[Balto Charlie]

What do others think of the technical vs tame trail choices?

I, like you have been very surprised at some of the new trails. I think the new stuff is good but am disappointed at what has been lost. Most of the really steep stuff is gone.
The 'gorge' near the park and ride entrance was one of the first to go. I was there on trail day when we threw a bunch of downed trees into it. That was always one of the toughest climbs in the park. Very sad but I was a good soldier. We also tamed the entrance for the park and ride on that day. The first drop into the park use to be tight and twisty, all of the small stream crossings guaranteed air, sweet start. Now it's......well kinda boring. Losing the 'back to back' drops above the four way intersection was also sad. I was always testing my uphill climbing skills there. There's one more really steep drop near Belmont Farm that I fear will be the next lost section..... Say it ain't so, please keep it. When I ride that section clean I feel sooo good.
In concluding I do appreciate all that you guys do. I haven't done trail days if a few years but do carry a saw w/ me when I walk the park w/ my dog. Mike if you guys are planning to alter that drop by Belmont and want input drop me a line and I'll meet y'all there. Charlie

[escatmore]

UGH!

If you see a 'gorge' in Patapsco you're looking at a prime example of what erosion can do. You may see a fun down hill, the park management sees missing soil that has been deposited in the stream and river affecting the health of way more than I can possibly grasp ( said the dumb computer guy ).

The type of soil we have does not sustain fall line trail.

The steep stuff is gone for this reason alone. Some pieces do still exist but look at them closely, they are disappearing. They're eroding, some cases slower than others, but they are eroding.

Not sure where you're talking about on the Belmont loop but it's not likely to be touched if it's not blazed. Both directions of the trail that crosses Belmont Woods Road is not maintained trail, so depending on where you are you may very well be in luck.

If you want to help in the planning of future trail dates email me ecraw4d at gmail. This is your opportunity to bend Amy's ear directly, just ask urbaindk, he talked to her for over an hour during our last planning session.

One more thing, Mike doesn't work here anymore, he still talks about it and rides it and loves it, but we haven't seen him in almost a year. He does have nice shiny trophy to show for it though. Mike, I still luv ya, work out your frustrations by riding faster, HA!

eric

[BikerMiker]

Man, I put in 8 years and take one year off and I get called out for it. Sheesh.

It's all about sustainable trail. Stuff that is super-steep doesn't last. It gets worse, erodes and we need to fix it. Sorry, this is the way of the world.

I understand that you have your personal trail riding needs, but it's just not that simple. We have to build/maintain the trails in such a way that we are seen as responsible users so that we don't lose our access to the woods. Ever been to Marin County? No singletrack for mountain bikers. No kidding. We don't want that so we are responsible and we don't condone illegal trails. We also fix what is unsightly and not sustainable.

I don't want to change YOUR favorite trail. I DO want to ensure that everyone has access to the trails for 20-50 years and don't require 8 full-time people to fix the problems.

I loved the Lewis and Clarke/Norris Lane stuff but I understood that it would not last and it was a bad example of how mountain bikers act in the woods.

mike
still around, just the 2007 Granny Gear 24hr National Expert Champ...

[Balto Charlie]

FWIW: The gorge I was referring to was there before mnt biking came to Patapsco. I know erosion is the culprit but it's a shame to lose them.
I spent the entire Labor day wknd this year at a seriously eroded rock climbing area in WVa. We re-built many of the trails near this rock wall. Some of the soil had eroded so much(in one area) that clipping the first bolt was getting very dangerous with 4 foot of soil eroded. We actually moved huge(2-3 people needed to carry) rocks. We laid them almost like stairs but space further apart as well as create a water redirect. This seemed like a great way to save a steep heavily eroded area. IMBA regs may differ I do not know. Rocks seem to be plentiful in the park and with a little, okay a whole lot of muscle they could be strategically placed. Obviously biking (oh yeah and horses) put a different demand on the trails though so the rocks might not be the answer.
The area I was talking about in the previous post: N end Belmont heading east, turn right downhill(head south) along the eastern edge of Belmont eventually you'll come to a ravine(this is it, I don't recall flagging but it isn't private land) where you drop down(avoid hitting tree) then immediately up a sharp steep climb that breaks out of the forest to one of Belmont's grassy trail section. Then you re-enter the woods and come to the 4-way intersection. If you turn right here you'll come to the 2 drops and climbs that are no longer opened. There was recent flagging and rerouting in this area .
Guys, I'm not busting your chops just answering c-dales question. Eric look for an email. Charlie

[escatmore]

It's all about what have you done for me lately Mike.

Charlie, I think I know the gorge to which you refer, and I concur it has been there for ever. No one is blaming MTB'rs for it's presence. Or for the presence of any erosion rut for that matter. It's a soil/water/use issue.

If we had boulders that could be used as trail bed around trust me, I would LOVE to use them. I may ride a rigid singlespeed but I would rather pick my way through a rock garden than any other trail form/feature.

Horses are a whole other subject I don't understand. Seen any corduroy lately?

The ravine you are referring to is on the Morning Choice trail and it will likely get rerouted some day. Sorry to say it. I agree it is a special spot. I always catch people on it because they don't realize how fast you can rail that whole trail.

eric - chops intact, just don't know what else to do about the 'we're rerouting every cool thing out there' argument.

[cbass]

What they said with this addition...

The Rockburn Branch reroute isn't finished yet as far as I know.

The last thing you do when you're cutting trail is the 'finish work', this includes using debris to narrow up the line you just cut. It won't be a four foot wide trail when they are done.

eric

Any word on when the 'finish work' will happen? It looks like they smoothed out the ruts with a track vehicle recently. The trail is still very wide and could use some tightening. What's on the agenda for trail work day #1?

[RubberSideDown]

Any word on when the 'finish work' will happen? It looks like they smoothed out the ruts with a track vehicle recently. The trail is still very wide and could use some tightening. What's on the agenda for trail work day #1?

The email that I saw said the trail work day #1 is more of a scouting mission to help determine what trails will need what work. I will see if I can get a copy of that email and post the details tonight.

[riderx]

The email that I saw said the trail work day #1 is more of a scouting mission to help determine what trails will need what work. I will see if I can get a copy of that email and post the details tonight.
I think you misunderstood. There is way too much work to do to use a trail work day for scouting.

[RubberSideDown]

I think you misunderstood. There is way too much work to do to use a trail work day for scouting.

My apologies. I may be misunderstood, however, I was referring to the Park's first trail work day.

I will get that email from the park and post those details. Sorry if I have confused this with possibly the first MORE Trail work day in Patapsco. :o

(And I don't mean that in an Eddie Haskle kind of way).

[riderx]

My apologies. I may be misunderstood, however, I was referring to the Park's first trail work day.

I will get that email from the park and post those details. Sorry if I have confused this with possibly the first MORE Trail work day in Patapsco. :o

(And I don't mean that in an Eddie Haskle kind of way).Gotcha. I was speaking about MORE work days. Even for the park though, I am surprised they would spend volunteer hours on an official work day scouting trail. Doesn't not seem to be the best use of resources IMO. We (local MTBers/MORE trail workers) can easily give them a big list of areas to address and the trail crew is usually has a handle on that as well.

[cbass]

Yup. There's plenty of trail that needs some love. Anyone know the name of the mechanized trail building thing that the trail crew uses?

[BikerMiker]

Dingo. They use a hydraulic 3-way blade on it.

This is the one I've used with Rich, I think... http://tinyurl.com/2jq3yk

mike

[tpoz]

Went riding today and trails were AWFUL. Not sure how Balt Co side was, but I heard the trails were ok so headed in on the Howard County side and it was an absolute MESS! I ended up feeling so bad i was even on them, I took the shortest route to the road and did a road ride instead. My bike gained about 5lbs of mud the short time on was on them.
Definitely wont be good unless they are frozen or have another couple (maybe more) of very dry windy days. It is a horrible rutted out mess.

[lefty]

I rode both sides today at 7am everything was still frozen by the time I left at 9:30 but all the trails were rutted from people riding in the mud.

[escatmore]

No plan yet, Amy and i sit down Wednesday morning to discuss.

Our dates are 4/12 and 5/17. Preliminary plans are one will be a bob day and one will be a cookout day.

My guess on the scouting mission is to get help with Trail Assessment and the paperwork it generates, so that she can use it to command her trail crew to go fix those lovely special spots.

Have any suggestions for your favourite 'I wish this was better' spot, fire away I have a wish list I bring to every meeting. Night riding used to be on it ...

Want to be more involved, let me know, I'll try including you in the process.

eric