Shimano XT vs. LX

[senator]

Those of you who have been following my "name that clunk" thread knew this was coming, and now it's here. I am looking to upgrade my drivetrain without breaking the bank. I have been looking at the different Shimano cranksets, derailleurs, cassettes and BBs, but can't decide if it's worth it to get the XT over the LX. Basically, I want to know the practical difference.

I've heard different reviews on many sites, but wanted to come here to get an idea from you all based on the local trails I ride. I am a Wakefield nut. I'm there 4 days a week, 2 hours a day. Therefore, I'm putting a lot of strain on my current drivetrain to the point where it sounds like a 19th century carriage ride (squeaks, clunks, rattles and shimmies). I'm running a cheap, bottom of the line Shimano system now that came with my Rockhopper. After 6 months of abuse under my 215lb, 6'+ mass, it's time.

I know the XTR is the best, but if I wanted to spend that kind of money I would have bought an Epic Comp instead of my trusty Rockhopper. So, I'm looking for opinions on their XT and LX products.

And if you feel like plugging other manufacturers, too, make a good case! :)

THANK YOU!!

[jabberwocky]

XT parts are worth the upgrade from LX, in my opinion. They are constructed of higher quality materials and simply work a bit better. Going up another level to XTR nets you some weight savings, but not much noticeable difference in shifting quality.

Personally, I would recommend a full SRAM drivetrain though. X9 shifters and dérailleurs cost similar to XT, and work much better.

[ridethewomble]

You'll get more detailed opinions, but I will say this. I have a guiding principle that it's silly to spend $200 to shave 10 grams. ESPECIALLY when you are a Clydesdale. That's why I pick XT over XTR. XTR is prettier, lighter, and perhaps shifts a smidge better. It's very dainty, though, and much less durable. As far as LX goes, I think the jump in quality from LX to XT is probably bigger than the jump from XT to XTR. I think XTR is mainly about weight.

I guess it depends on the component. Front dérailleur? LX should be fine. Rear dérailleur? XT may give better performance, and be worth the bucks. Cassette? You're big. A light XTR cassette will be as putty in the hands of your chain. Get the XT. Shifters? Personal preference, really.

Having said all that, I'm all SRAM now. X9. I loved their chains for years, and finally made the jump to their components a while back. I like SRAM better. I think it shifts better, and I think it's tougher. That's just an opinion, though.

I still have an LX front dérailleur, though. :)


...and now, a preemptive strike against the SS community. :D Man, you ride Wakefield. Rip off those gears and convert to SS!

There. Now they can't jump all over your thread.

[senator]

Personally, I would recommend a full SRAM drivetrain though. X9 shifters and dérailleurs cost similar to XT, and work much better.
Yeah, that's my second choice, actually... Hypothetically, if I bought SRAM derailleurs, they wouldn't work with my current Shimano shifters, would they?

[ridethewomble]

Well, it would appear I agree with Jabberwocky. I swear I was writing mine at the same time he was writing his!

[jabberwocky]

Yeah, that's my second choice, actually... Hypothetically, if I bought SRAM derailleurs, they wouldn't work with my current Shimano shifters, would they?No. You'd need (at minimum) a new set of shifters and a rear derailleur.

ridethewomble is right about the front derailleur. LX (or whatever) is fine there. Shimano and SRAMs front shifter works with anything, so I'd keep whatever you have on the front.

[senator]

You'll get more detailed opinions, but I will say this. I have a guiding principle that it's silly to spend $200 to shave 10 grams. ESPECIALLY when you are a Clydesdale. That's why I pick XT over XTR. XTR is prettier, lighter, and perhaps shifts a smidge better. It's very dainty, though, and much less durable. As far as LX goes, I think the jump in quality from LX to XT is probably bigger than the jump from XT to XTR. I think XTR is mainly about weight.

I guess it depends on the component. Front dérailleur? LX should be fine. Rear dérailleur? XT may give better performance, and be worth the bucks. Cassette? You're big. A light XTR cassette will be as putty in the hands of your chain. Get the XT. Shifters? Personal preference, really.

Having said all that, I'm all SRAM now. X9. I loved their chains for years, and finally made the jump to their components a while back. I like SRAM better. I think it shifts better, and I think it's tougher. That's just an opinion, though.



Wow, looks like you all have great things to say about SRAMs X9. Perhaps I will fold like my bottom bracket and go with them instead. Speaking of BBs, I'm assuming that (like Shimano) SRAM makes a full line of drivetrain components, meaning that there would be a X9 BB and so on. Right?

Next question would be, naturally, did any of you get a great deal when buying these parts locally? Or, were they online purchases installed personally? Since I have minimal technical skills when it comes to my bike (and I'd like to change that, someday), I'd be getting them installed at a shop.

[senator]

so I'd keep whatever you have on the front.
And I would... if only it shifted 50% of the time (even post tune-up).

[jabberwocky]

Wow, looks like you all have great things to say about SRAMs X9. Perhaps I will fold like my bottom bracket and go with them instead. Speaking of BBs, I'm assuming that (like Shimano) SRAM makes a full line of drivetrain components, meaning that there would be a X9 BB and so on. Right?SRAM owns Truvativ for cranks/bottom brackets. For cranks though, I'd look to a different manufacturer. Raceface and Shimano are generally better options there. Personally, I'd take a good look at Shimano LX cranks. They are almost identical to XT.

Remember, theres nothing wrong with mixing and matching brands. :)

Next question would be, naturally, did any of you get a great deal when buying these parts locally? Or, were they online purchases installed personally? Since I have minimal technical skills when it comes to my bike (and I'd like to change that, someday), I'd be getting them installed at a shop.I generally do my shopping online. I do all my own wrenching.

And I would... if only it shifted 50% of the time (even post tune-up).Just snag a new LX then. They are really cheap.

[ridethewomble]

Since I have minimal technical skills when it comes to my bike (and I'd like to change that, someday), I'd be getting them installed at a shop.
I put my own on, and then took it to Conte's when I couldn't get the rear d dialed in.

I made a classic mistake all first-time SRAM installers make. I made the last run of shifter cable just a bit too short. It looked great, but it wasn't. You have to measure it (according to the instructions that come with the rear d) to get it right.

The anecdotal evidence I have gathered suggests that this is a classic, and very common, mistake. So yeah, just ask the shop to do it correctly the first time, instead of doing it yourself, and then having them fix it.

I'll do the next cable run myself, but watch out for this gotcha.

[Brizn]

Most deals on stuff like that are to be had online, then installed personally. If you need it installed, pick up the gear and get the service, both, at your LBS.

Sram stuff is very, very popular.. and was recommended to me a bunch of times. At first, I didn't want to believe the hype, boyeee. But I went ahead and got the X9 set up and have had almost no problems whatsoever. (mind you, the switch to Sram corresponds with my own improvement in the ability to keep my stuff dialed, so my opinion could be skewed in that manner). Another option is to keep the shimano der (as long as it moves and pivots well, a der just has to MOVE) and use the Sram Attack trigger shifters. I've found that more of the shifting precision in a set up has to do with the shifters, not with the der. You'd spend less money, and get the advantage of Sram shifting. Just another option is all.

[Auger N]

I'm a SRAM person myself, but that does not seem to make sense in your case.

Looking at the Specialized website, the top spec'd Rockhopper comes with an LX rear derailleur and the rest is pretty....generic.

The fact that they don't spec a Rockhopper with full LX - much less XT anything - leads me to believe that XT is probably overkill for the quality of your frame and other components. It doesn't seem worth the extra for XT.

LX will probably last well enough for you (I still have some working LX bits on my '92 Cannondale Delta V that have held up under my Clydesdale weight all this time), will be cheaper, and more appropriate to your frame level.

[mjbrox]

XT parts are worth the upgrade from LX, in my opinion. They are constructed of higher quality materials and simply work a bit better. Going up another level to XTR nets you some weight savings, but not much noticeable difference in shifting quality.

Personally, I would recommend a full SRAM drivetrain though. X9 shifters and dérailleurs cost similar to XT, and work much better.


I agree, I love my Shram X9.

I got both shifters and a RD for $140 off pricepoint.com

[senator]

Looking at the Specialized website, the top spec'd Rockhopper comes with an LX rear derailleur and the rest is pretty....generic.

Actually, my rear deraiileur that came with the bike is a Shimano Alivio ($15). The front is a Shimano Acera (or something like that).

[smdubovsky]

FWIW, I changed from a brand new XT setup to a X9 setup recently on my Epic. The difference was easily noticeable - even to this relative newbie. SRAM is 2x less sensitive to cable flex/stretch issues (= a good thing esp on a FS bike). My wifes new Trek 6500 also came w/ XT RD (+ LX shifters) and are causing her all sorts of ghost shifting problems. Im VERY close to installing my spare X9 setup on there. A new/takeoff 2007+ RD (the hanger goes inside the pivoting piece) and pre-2007 X9 shifters can be found for $80-100 total on ebay. If you like gripshifts, those are even cheaper.

As for a cranks, I'd look hard at the LX hollowtech. I took a set of truvative 175mm stylos off my bike and bought longer 180mm XTs. The engineering qual and fit/finish of the shimanos easily trumps the qual of the stylos (those little machined lift pins upshift instantly). If the LXs are remotely similar they're likely the best bargain out there.

SMD

[EJensen]

Where are all the diehard Shimano fans out there?

I too have drunk the SRAM Kool-Aid and never looked back. I have converted my bike to a 1x9, but when I still had a front D my all-time favorite setup was:

X9 rear D
X9 rear trigger shifter
X9 front twist shifter
any old front D whatsoever

I prefer trigger for the rear where I tend to do a lot of shifting.

The advantage of SRAM front twist shifters is the way you can trim the front D. The front twist provides for eight clicks or so end-to-end. When you want to shift the front you twist until the chain falls into place where you want it. If you then shift the rear D and this causes the chain to rub the front D cage slightly, you just adjust it a click in the proper direction and all is well.

It makes the choice of front D itself a complete non-issue in my opinion.

The rub is that you have to find a retailer that will break up a set and sell you just a front twist and just a rear trigger. You certainly don't want to buy two complete sets and use only half of each. I got mine from Speedgoat.com, and they are one of the few places I found that would do this for you.

In the larger sense, have you thought about an overall upgrade path? If you put higher end components on your Rockhopper now, the next step can be a frame purchase, and most of the components we're discussing can be moved over. If you don't want to go that route and you want only to buy complete bikes, you may want to get something that will get you by for as long as you think you will stay with the Rockhopper, with an eye toward the big upgrade in the form of a complete bike.

Regards,
Eric

[g_barr]

SRAM owns Truvativ for cranks/bottom brackets. For cranks though, I'd look to a different manufacturer.

I've raced two W@W and two CMs on a Truvativ Stylo 3.3 Team crankset. I'm running a Shimano XT chain through XT derailleurs. All three chain rings on the Truvativ have sheared, scraped and mangled teeth. Other than normal wear, the chain is fine. I can't imagine if I had another 50 pounds and rode as much as Senator.

I replaced my worn-out LX bottom-swing front derailleur with a top-swing XT FD-M761. I was told top-swing is better but it has a delicate looking cable situation since my cable routes below the BB shell. My 4-year old XT rear derailleur has operated like a champ with routine maintenance and the LX shifters are great. I don't have integrated shifter/brake levers though.

I gave up on trying to find good deals on-line. I'd go to a LBS (except Bicycle Pro Shop in G'town) for a complete drivetrain overhaul. If you do the same for some/all of your upgrade, be sure to ask about the MORE member discount.

FYI - mtbr.com reviews are worthless.

[FIX_BKS]

I'm not all that suprised by the SRAM enthusiasm, but I am surprised by the amount of outspoken responses towards it! It must mean something if the question was LX vs. XT and the answer is SRAM!

For comparison's sake I was running top of the line Shimano XTR all around and I'm now running SRAM X.0 all the way around (except I kept the front XTR derailleur) and the X.O still, after a year of riding it, surprises me with super fast responsive shifting.

To answer your question though, anything new is going to feel great. I think you would be equally satisfied with both LX and XT riding it for the first time out of a shop...and probably even for a couple of months thereafter. Beyond that though, an XT RD is going to give you better reliability because of stronger, wider pivots and reduced slop and play which develop over time. A good set up would probably be LX shifters and front der. and an XT rear....in the Shimano category. Someone also suggested getting the SRAM Attack shifters which are compatible with Shimano derailleurs and I would have to agree with that too. See where you can get the best deals on what and that will help your end decision.

[g_barr]

The advantage of SRAM front twist shifters is the way you can trim the front D. The front twist provides for eight clicks or so end-to-end. When you want to shift the front you twist until the chain falls into place where you want it. If you then shift the rear D and this causes the chain to rub the front D cage slightly, you just adjust it a click in the proper direction and all is well.

Sorry Eric but after having SRAM grip shifters and Shimano rapid-fire shifters, I swear to never ride those silly twisty things again. If you cross-chain a lot or ignore drivetrain maintenance, you will get front derailleur rub. Since most of us have 24 to 27 gears, there are so many overlapping gear ratios that makes cross-chaining unecessary. So I'm convinced eight clicks for three rings just compensates for a sloppy design.

The only alternative to rapid-fire (or trigger) levers is one ring and one cog.

[FIX_BKS]

Sorry Eric but after having SRAM grip shifters and Shimano rapid-fire shifters, I swear to never ride those silly twisty things again. If you cross-chain a lot or ignore drivetrain maintenance, you will get front derailleur rub. Since most of us have 24 to 27 gears, there are so many overlapping gear ratios that makes cross-chaining unecessary. So I'm convinced eight clicks for three rings just compensates for a sloppy design.

The only alternative to rapid-fire (or trigger) levers is one ring and one cog.

I also want to add that any reference I make to SRAM shifters, I'm referring to their trigger shifters. I'm not knocking GripShift, because you can really rip through some gears in one twist, which some people love...I just personally don't like it.

[EJensen]

The only alternative to rapid-fire (or trigger) levers is one ring and one cog.
I'll agree to disagree in principle, as I would put my SRAM twisty back on if I went to multiple rings again. However, one ring (and a bash ring) works great for me, as nine options with X9 trigger/rear D is all I want.

I'll even have a bit wider spread once I change out my current 11-32 cassette with the new (SRAM) 11-34 980 I just got. Which, by the way, I will install with the new (SRAM) 991 chain I also just got. Since I have a (SRAM) Rockshox Reba fork, I am getting dangerously close to brand loyalty.

Regards,

Eric

[senator]

Holy crap... I think it's an SRAM revolution! Viva la Shram!

Seriously, I think this has truly helped me make up my mind. I think I'm going to do this... LX crankset, BB and front derailleur; X9 rear derailleur with SRAM trigger shifters. Am I missing anything?

Now the question becomes this: Do I upgrade my 8-speed cassette for a 9-speed? In other words, will the above mentioned products be fine with my current 8-speed setup? Well, I guess with the trigger shifters I'd have to, right?

[Brizn]

The advantage of SRAM front twist shifters is the way you can trim the front D. If you cross-chain a lot or ignore drivetrain maintenance, you will get front derailleur rub. Since most of us have 24 to 27 gears, there are so many overlapping gear ratios that makes cross-chaining unecessary. So I'm convinced eight clicks for three rings just compensates for a sloppy design.Good input.. but who needs to trim the front derailleur? I like to just hit something once and have it go where told. Instead of having to be so precise about which click I'm stopping on. Granted, personal pref. When properly adjusted (even with a full 3x9 set up) there should be no chain rub in appropriate gear combos. That is, there should never be chain rub in 22 x 1-5, 32 x all 9, or 44 x 4-9. Cross chainin' ain't no good! Am i missing something?

[Squirrel Girl]

I have to hop into this thread to point out that the advantage to sticking with Shimano is that I get to use a Rapid Rise derailleur and they're *the best*!!!

Yay! :D Otherwise, I hear enough good about SRAM, I probably would have switched.

[gddavid]

Ok, I'm a geek (we all are) but I just added up the parts on pricepoint, assuming sram x9 with grip shift set, lx crank, sram 9 speed cassette, sram 9 speed chain, and lx front deraileur. I got $352.88. This would make for one smooth shifting machine for sure and you would have probably have to spend a grand or so to get a comparably spec'd bike but I would begin to think about holding off to a bit and justifying a new bike. Your probably going to want a new fork soon, then better wheels and at this point you've got a pretty extremely spec'd rockhopper and a lot of money in it. I'm sure you could shop around and find a little better deal on maybe the lx crank but this is alot of coin for a bike you will outgrow. My $.02, you could probably find something really nice used for around 700.

[g_barr]

Now the question becomes this: Do I upgrade my 8-speed cassette for a 9-speed? In other words, will the above mentioned products be fine with my current 8-speed setup? Well, I guess with the trigger shifters I'd have to, right?

There are subtle differences between 8 and 9 drivetrain parts - just make sure the part numbers match to your intended application. The main difference is the width of the chain (9 being narrower). I see two reasons to stay away from a 1-cog addition:

1. it means changing out your hub
2. the additional cog doesn't give you a gear ratio unique from others you already have (gear ratio = # of front teeth / # of rear teeth).

A change like Eric's (11-32 to a 11-34) is a better alternative if you feel like you're missing something on either end. I recently learned Dura-ace cassettes do quite well on a mountain bike. Honestly, I'd rather not have 27 gears because I don't use all of them.

For the record, I'll be brand loyal when someone sponsors me :rolleyes: .

[senator]

Ok, I'm a geek (we all are) but I just added up the parts on pricepoint, assuming sram x9 with grip shift set, lx crank, sram 9 speed cassette, sram 9 speed chain, and lx front deraileur. I got $352.88. This would make for one smooth shifting machine for sure and you would have probably have to spend a grand or so to get a comparably spec'd bike but I would begin to think about holding off to a bit and justifying a new bike. Your probably going to want a new fork soon, then better wheels and at this point you've got a pretty extremely spec'd rockhopper and a lot of money in it. I'm sure you could shop around and find a little better deal on maybe the lx crank but this is alot of coin for a bike you will outgrow. My $.02, you could probably find something really nice used for around 700.
I've considered this. Unfortunately, my wife would never go for a new bike in a million years. To her, it makes more sense to upgrade parts - especially only 6 months after buying the bike. Logically, however, you're right (and I'd prefer to get a new bike), but I've gotta pick my battles and logic has no place in a marriage! ;) I really don't have any problem with my Rockhopper's frame. In fact, I love it. Forks are good for right now, and yes, eventually I'll upgrade those, too. But for right now, the amount of use I put on my components require that I upgrade the drivetrain right away... after all, I need something that's dependable.

As for buying used... I just can't bring myself to do it. You never know what kind of stress was placed on the bike/parts and I'd rather not have to worry about it.

[senator]

There are subtle differences between 8 and 9 drivetrain parts - just make sure the part numbers match to your intended application. The main difference is the width of the chain (9 being narrower). I see two reasons to stay away from a 1-cog addition:

1. it means changing out your hub
2. the additional cog doesn't give you a gear ratio unique from others you already have (gear ratio = # of front teeth / # of rear teeth).

A change like Eric's (11-32 to a 11-34) is a better alternative if you feel like you're missing something on either end. I recently learned Dura-ace cassettes do quite well on a mountain bike. Honestly, I'd rather not have 27 gears because I don't use all of them.

For the record, I'll be brand loyal when someone sponsors me :rolleyes: .
Thanks for breaking that down. I'll be sticking with my 8-speed and see where I end up from there.

[DaveG]

There are subtle differences between 8 and 9 drivetrain parts - just make sure the part numbers match to your intended application. The main difference is the width of the chain (9 being narrower). I see two reasons to stay away from a 1-cog addition:

1. it means changing out your hub
2. the additional cog doesn't give you a gear ratio unique from others you already have (gear ratio = # of front teeth / # of rear teeth).

A change like Eric's (11-32 to a 11-34) is a better alternative if you feel like you're missing something on either end. I recently learned Dura-ace cassettes do quite well on a mountain bike. Honestly, I'd rather not have 27 gears because I don't use all of them.

For the record, I'll be brand loyal when someone sponsors me :rolleyes: .

Only the spacing changed going from 8 to 9 speed. The hubs are the same.

Dave

[tsunayoshi]

I have to hop into this thread to point out that the advantage to sticking with Shimano is that I get to use a Rapid Rise derailleur and they're *the best*!!!

Yay! :D Otherwise, I hear enough good about SRAM, I probably would have switched.

Long live Rapid Rise!! (a.k.a Low Normal).

Long live integrated brake/shifters!

I'm not sure if I am a traitor...I have a full Shimano line-up (shifters, front and rear ders, brakes, cassette) but run an SRAM chain...powerlinks rock!

[senator]

I went a little nuts. Here's what I bought:

X9 Rear Derailleur
X9 Shifters
XT Cassette
XTR Front Derailleur 2006 (clearance for $20)
LX Crankset
SRAM Chain
AVID Front Brake levers

Got them at Performance (the tech there spent 2 hours with me. Awesome, awesome customer service). They told me they'd match any online price, so I got the whole shebang down to $350 - plus I'll get my "club card" discount.

:D

[jabberwocky]

Nice! Thats a real good price for all that. It will be a night and day difference compared to your old Alivio! :D

Make sure you let us know how you like it once you get in installed!

[senator]

Nice! Thats a real good price for all that. It will be a night and day difference compared to your old Alivio! :D

Make sure you let us know how you like it once you get in installed!
Better than that... I'll show it off at next Thursday's Wakefield ride... :)

Too bad I have to go without a bike for a week, though. But at least I'll be in the OBX for most of that time!

[Brizn]

Dood.. that's a steal for an XTR FD! Did they have others? Which shop?

[EJensen]

Holy crap... I think it's an SRAM revolution! Viva la Shram!
Or perhaps a SRAM philosophy: I think, there I SRAM.

Wish I could license that one.

Of course, if it is a revolution, then the state of media coverage for all things MTB most likely means that the revolution will not be televised.

Regards,
Eric

[g_barr]

Now for goodness sake Senator, DO NOT ride that gear in the MUD!

[senator]

Now for goodness sake Senator, DO NOT ride that gear in the MUD!
I'll try me derndest...!

[senator]

Dood.. that's a steal for an XTR FD! Did they have others? Which shop?
Tell me about it. I wish everything was that cheap! I got it at Performance Tysons. It was their last one. :p

[jabberwocky]

I'll try me derndest...!Ha ha! You are never going to live that thread down, dude. :)

[senator]

Ha ha! You are never going to live that thread down, dude. :)
For never having actually ridden in mud, it makes for an interesting reputation!

But then again, with a name like Senator, should I be surprised to see myself associated with mud? :D

[senator]

Holy Moses, my bike shifts with a precision I never before thought possible. These SRAM shifters and rear derailleur are fantastic. Hooray for X9's! :)