Hydro Disc Brake Discussion...

[Dirt]

Oy oy.

I'm building a new bike and the one big question mark in the build setup is the disc brakes.

I like Hydros. I've ridden Hope, Avid, Formula, Magura and Hayes. I've found annoying problems with all of them. Most of the problems have been nagging little things, but they still are enough that I do not feel drawn to any of the brakes theat I've tried before. I'd like to get the most for my money.

I'll start with my least favorites and work forward.

I've had multiple catastrophic failures with Hayes and Formula brakes. I'm not likely to ever ride with either on my bike soon.

Magura
I've ridden with Magura Gustav and Louise brakes before and generally liked the performance, but noticed that the fluid needed to be changed often to keep them working fade-free for Colorado descents. I also found that it is sometimes hard to get the hose connections perfect on the Maguras. If you don't get it perfect, you wind up with brakes that you have to bleed every few months.

On the good side, Magura parts and fluid are easily available and they've always been easy to bleed. . The brakes have a good feel.

The Marta SL's are stupid light, yet still seem to work well.

I like a company that makes the effort to test their brakes on MTB tandems. That makes me like the company regardless of what their brakes are like on singles. .

Avid
My experience is with the Juicy 7s. My initial impression was bad. I was impossible for me to originally set up the brakes to fit my bike because I needed a longer rear brake hose than AVID made. I ended up being forced to get aftermarket hardware (Thanks CityBikes for the help with that) to initially install the brakes.

The bleed process for the Avids is neither precise, nor intuitive. The whole "squeeze fluid into the caliper, but don't do it too hard or you'll blow out the seals" directions make me think that these were NOT well thought through.

Spare parts are NOT easy or readily available.

The reach adjust set screws back out regularly on both sets that I've had. Loctite helps. Next time the reach will be set PERMINANTLY.

You must modify the mounting bracket and caliper to run 185mm rotors on a Reba 29er fork with a king hub.

On the good side: once they were installed and broken in, they felt really good. They're easy to aling and I like the feel of the brake. They have great power.

Hope
I used the Mono Mini brakes and the 4-piston version for a while and generally liked them. The initial install is a pain. All those little shims to get them lined up are a pain. Once it is done, it is done. The old ones did not allow you to change rotor size without changing calipers. (Some 07 models change that both of the complaints I've had so far.)

Hope brakes squeal like crazy if the setup or alignment is even just slightly off or if you're using new rotors/pads. Oddly enough that is a minor annoyance for me. I usually get them set up right and can put up with the noise while the pads/rotors break in.

The tiny hex bolts that are/were used to hold the brake resevoirs shut are easy to strip. Getting them out isn't difficult. It is, however, very delicate work.

On the good side: While the hopes didn't have as much power as the Juicy7s, they have much more modulation. I love the feel of these brakes.

I really like that the hardware is so easily available.

Hope's bleed process is simple and complete. It takes time and care, but in the end it is EASY to completely remove air from the system.

I'd love to hear from folks who have some experience with brakes. If someone can try to change my mind about Hayes, I'd be willing to listen. The El Caminos looked interesting and were a significant departure from the Hayes brakes of the past.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Pete

[middle-ring]

Pete:
I'm currently running Juicy 7's on my Bullit - 8" rotors. The brake lines were long enough, in fact the front is too long, but I havent yet felt like cutting and re-bleeding the system - (but the bike would look better with the right length).

I purchased the Juicy's after running bb7's for a few yrs. The Juicy's made all the difference in world for my heavier weight (200 lbs) and DH riding I was doing on that bike. In order to get 1 finger braking I had to go 8" hydro. So far, those brakes are still beast, provinding incredible stopping power and modulation that works well for my style of riding on that particular bike (Snowshoe, Utah, Furnace, etc)

Recently I built up a new bike and put Avid Ultimate's on it. 7" rotors. Incredible stopping power, and better modulation than the juicy has on my Bullit. Way too much money - but I wasn't penny pinching and I got the performance I wanted.

I have had zero performance issues - pad replacement is easy. Alignment was a snap, lever adjustment on the Ultimate is better than the Juicy, but then again there's that cost issue. I have a hardtail with Hayes and they don't work good enough to convince me to buy Hayes again. I have bled Hayes brakes many times, without issue - but it can be messy.

My brakes have to work really well for me to be happy and these sets do...

That's all I have to say about Hydro brakes.

[halfinch]

pete,
i've owned magura rim hydro brakes. wasn't overly pleased with them. no experience on their discs hydros.

hayes.
i found them to be great stoppers, little modulation. my set were quite old and haven't had a chance to experience any of their new products.

avid's
i've seen several people adjusting the juicy's with much frustration. based upon my observations and their displeasure, i'd stick with the bb7'z there.

shimano
i have a set of the lx hydro's on my 29er. i've been pleased so far, but didn't spend the time setting them up (derrick at TBL) hooked them up for me. i like the fact shimano uses mineral oil instead of DOT.

i've read some promising reviews on the formula oro's, but haven't seen any in use.

[liltommy]

My .02.
First I've only had experience with the Hayes HFX9 which came stock on my Fisher and mech Avids.
I've had no trouble with the hayes until recently I had to rebuild the master cylinder, but the things are over 2 years old and I think part of the problem was me leaving it in the weather.

I was always happy with there stopping power and modulation.
I've never had problem with brake fading, evan the 1 time I went to Douthat.

The rebuild process did go easily though. Evan the bleeding process was easy and took the first try. No re-bleeding.

Your right , the Camino's do look interesting. I was looking at them while trying to find the cylinder rebuild kit.

Seeya

[Dirt]

Halfinch: Good call to bring in Shimanos. I always leave them out because I've got a chip on my shoulder about Shimano. I've got issues with their drivetrain stuff, so I tend to discount that they make stoppers too. I'll have to look into them. Last year they made the high end levers available without shifters attached, didn't they? I have ZERO interest in running shimano shifters/derailleurs.

Middle-ring: I too had to shorten the front hose on my Juicy7s. The reason I have trouble with the rear hose reaching is that I ride an XL 29er and use Jones H-bars. That means I need about 6" more hose than Avid provides. Since the fittings that go into the caliper are installed at the factory and not user serviceable, I couldn't just install a new hose. I had to get aftermarket fittings.

Good info on the ultimates. I'll look into those.

Tommy: I had trouble with seals on the old style Hayes calipers and master cylanders. I won't go back to those.

You're right. I do need to research and maybe try out the El Caminos.

Thanks for the answers.

Pete

[Nick]

Shimano's rule.

Easy care, uses mineral oil, last forever. I'm running a set of old lower end hyrdo deores that are about 5 years old now. I've never needed to bleed them, just changed the pads when needed. Great brakes.

I've got a 7 year old XT 4 piston on my tandem. Same situation, sees less use and it still stops that huge bike. Never bled.

I have bled shimano's before and open bath is so easy to bleed. pop the top, push in new fluid with a syringe from the caliper until it flows clean. easy cheesy.

[langer]

I can comment on my set of Avid Juicy 7s. I started a thread a week or so ago venting my frustration about nagging problems on my set.

Set up was cake. The CPS system works like a charm for aligning the caliper, no facing of the frame needed. It takes a little bit more than squeezing the lever and tightening the bolts on the caliper, but not much. I usually eyeball the caliper to center it on the rotor and then squeeze the lever to finalize centering.

I had the same problem everyone had with the polygon rotors that came with the brakes. Intense 'warbling' and pulsing of the brake. New round rotors from Avid (under warranty) solved the majority of the problem. Aftermarket pads from (durnit, I can't remember the name) cured all ills. I think stopping power was improved when I ditched the Avid pads.

Feel and modulation of the brakes is great. Power is all I could want for 160 mm rotors. When my Black Sheep frame arrives I'll be upgrading to 185 mm in the front. I have had problems with air entering the system.

I recently rebuilt the entire rear lever with new seals and I am about to do the same for the rear caliper, which has a sticky piston. The rear works with the sticky piston but makes it impossible to perfectly center the caliper on the rotor. I always have a bit of rotor rub.

I have noticed a tendency for air to enter the Juicy system somehow. This could be operator error though. My set has required frequent bleeds, which to honest, is not that difficult nor time consuming. I made the mistake of screwing the bleed syringes onto the lever and caliper bleed ports too tightly and destroying the o-rings. Not that big of a deal, just have to order a bag online or find some at the local hardware store.

The Juicys are my first set of one-finger brakes. I ran a set of Hayes (not sure which model) on my old Sugar frame which I never had an issue with besides a bleed every couple of years. They didn't have near the power the Juicys have though.

If I can't fix the sticky piston on the rear brake I might switch it to a Formula (gotta have bling for a Black Sheep!). Though I haven't seen Formula aftermarket levers that would complement the red theme I'm going with. :D
-jon

[werace424]

First let me say it is a great privelage and pleasure to give the magnificent PETE advice. :D :p

Second, I have only used my Shimano Deore LX calipers. I have a 6" on the rear and a 7 " on the front. (It came that way.) After riding about 500 plus miles, i had to change the pads. (LX pads are a little softer so they wear quicker) I replaced them with XTR pads...much harder, but slightly noisier. (They only squeak when really cold and damp). I do consider myself an above average rider with below average cornering skilz, so I abuse the brakes, especially the front, on a regular basis.

As far as modulation, I do not have the feel as of yet to give you an honest answer. But they DO NOT FADE. I rode the downhill at Tea Creek in WV. with lots of reserve, and had plenty of brake to spare.

They do make an XTR hydo lever only (http://bike.shimano.com/catalog/cycle/products/component.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=8 45524441783521&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302051 076&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=140847439518 1674&bmUID=1176498726811) .

I really don't care for their drivetrain gear either, but their brakes are good by me. Besides, even rinky dink shops cary shimano parts. Always a plus there.

Good luck and let me know if you would like to meet and give them a test run. My ride may be a little small for you, but you can have at if you like.

Paul

[jon_baler]

The shimano LX setup has been good to me, and I'm a clyde (220 lbs w/o gear). I've had them for 1.5 years with no problems (other than bent rotors). I will admit I've never owned any other hyrdos.

[CRAIG2]

I have the Hayes NINE's on my NRS currently. I purchased them from City Bikes, and they set them up for me. No problems yet, and they almost have a little too much stopping power in my opinion - definitely one finger stopping. Granted, these are probably just a year old, if that. These are my first hydros, so I really have nothing to compare against other than my Avid mechanicals, which came on the bike (OE). I had looked at the El Camino's as well, but didn't want to fork over the coinage at the time.

As you know, I'm also pretty skinny, and ride somewhat conservatively, so maybe someone who was heavier (no, Pete, I'm not calling you fat :rolleyes: :D ) and rode more aggressively would not be as satisfied.

Thanks for letting me ramble....

Craig

[jed]

I think it's really hard to go wrong with hydro discs these days. It's OK to have biases against certain brakes because you can still find something good even if you ignore the ones you don't like for whatever reason. I have extensively ridden Magura Marta SL, Avid Juicy 5's, and Shimano XT hydros. All work very well: no fading on long descents, all have great power and modulation. They all have their various idiosyncracies regading setup but all can be set up relatively easily. The Maguras do not have post mounts, so you need to shim those, but once you get them shimmed correctly they are fine. I can't speak for the difficulty of bleeding any of these brakes, because they came on complete bikes that I rode for a while and sold, so I didn't have to deal with it.

I was always a big Hayes fan; I have some of the original Mags from 1998 and they still work well, although I replaced the levers after a while because they were so worn they got pretty floppy. I also have some 2000 vintage ones on my Phil Wood SS that I have not touched since I built that bike in 2002 except to change pads and straighten a bent rear rotor once. They are easy to bleed and set up; I still think they are the best at remaining drag-free once you center the calipers. Post mounts make this easy. However, there is better stuff than that now in terms of lever feel and modulation. The El Caminos are an option; I tried them on someone else's bike and they felt more in line with what's available today. There is also a new Hayes brake called the Stroker coming out, but I'm not sure if it's available yet.

I was initially not too psyched at the thought of running Shimano XT or Magura brakes when they appeared on bikes I bought, but I decided to try them and reserve judgement until after I'd ridden them a while. After riding them any bias I had is gone. You are not forced to run anything Dual Control with Shimano any more, either; last year I ran XT brakes with Sram X-0 triggers.

I think Shimano is pretty hard to beat, personally. They seem to have the right blend of performance, affordability, lack of DOT fluid, easy to work on, and spare parts availability.

[Dirt]

Jed: You are the anti-me. You look at disc brakes with a "glass is half full" way and I look with the "glass is half empty". That said, your post was helpful. Thanks.

I still cannot believe that after 10 years of disc brake development, there still is not a design that gets rid of the vast majority of design flaws. That baffles me. Maybe the new Hopes are my answer.

Paul: Thanks for the shimano votes. They're on the list of candidates because of people's comments.

Langer: I read your thread and shared some of your pain. I haven't had a lot of the problems that you had, but it is indicative of so many fanufacturers that there are some bum sets of brakes out there and there seems to be nothing that improves them. My experiences like that were with both Hayes and Formula.

The front runner for me right now is a Hope M4 183mm rotor up front and either an M4 or Mono Mini 160mm out back. From what I've read on other forums, HOPE has done away with a lot of things that were negatives about the older brakes and the new ones are wonderful.

As I read about the Shimanos, one down side is that they are REALLY expensive. An XTR setup for front and rear brakes (180mm front and 160mm rear) would cost well over $600. XT would drop that a fair amount. They're still pricey.

Thanks again.

Pete

[Dirt]

Oh yeah... One more thing.

For those who say you haven't blead your brakes in 6 or 7 years, please make sure that you bleed your brakes before travelling to the Rockies or Sierras. Pretty much all brake fluids absorb water which reduces its boiling point significantly. That causes brake fade. You won't notice it on this side of the Mississippi, but you'll be in for a rude awakening on a 30-40 minute long downhill in Colorado if you don't have fresh fluid. :D

Take care,

Pete

[crashmore]

I started out with Maguras but it was a constant battle keeping them bled and performing. When I completely lost my rear break riding slick rock well that sent me over the edge. I ebayed them and never looked back.

Next I went to Shimano Dual Controls. The shimano disc brakes have been easily the most trouble free brakes I've run to date. I have a set of XTs on my blur and Scalpel, a set of XTR on my 5.5 and LX stand alones on my SS. They all perform well and I've only had to re-bleed one set in all the time I've owned them. If you don't like dual controls (which I'm even starting to loose my taste for) you can get the stand along normal brake levers.

I also have a set of Avid Juicy 7's on my VPFree and Avid Ultimates on my IF. They perform very similar to one another the only real diff I can find is the weight. These were the first set of brakes I ever installed from scratch myself and I thought the bleed was actually very easy and pretty intuitive. I think the overall performance is pretty good but I just don't think they're as grippy or as easily modulated as my Shimano brakes. It's a close call for me but I think I prefer my Shimanos.

For my next ride I'll ditch the dual control like I did with my IF in favor of SRAM but skip the Avids in favor of going back to XTR Discs.



Oy oy.

I'm building a new bike and the one big question mark in the build setup is the disc brakes.

I like Hydros. I've ridden Hope, Avid, Formula, Magura and Hayes. I've found annoying problems with all of them. Most of the problems have been nagging little things, but they still are enough that I do not feel drawn to any of the brakes theat I've tried before. I'd like to get the most for my money.

I'll start with my least favorites and work forward.

I've had multiple catastrophic failures with Hayes and Formula brakes. I'm not likely to ever ride with either on my bike soon.

Magura
I've ridden with Magura Gustav and Louise brakes before and generally liked the performance, but noticed that the fluid needed to be changed often to keep them working fade-free for Colorado descents. I also found that it is sometimes hard to get the hose connections perfect on the Maguras. If you don't get it perfect, you wind up with brakes that you have to bleed every few months.

On the good side, Magura parts and fluid are easily available and they've always been easy to bleed. . The brakes have a good feel.

The Marta SL's are stupid light, yet still seem to work well.

I like a company that makes the effort to test their brakes on MTB tandems. That makes me like the company regardless of what their brakes are like on singles. .

Avid
My experience is with the Juicy 7s. My initial impression was bad. I was impossible for me to originally set up the brakes to fit my bike because I needed a longer rear brake hose than AVID made. I ended up being forced to get aftermarket hardware (Thanks CityBikes for the help with that) to initially install the brakes.

The bleed process for the Avids is neither precise, nor intuitive. The whole "squeeze fluid into the caliper, but don't do it too hard or you'll blow out the seals" directions make me think that these were NOT well thought through.

Spare parts are NOT easy or readily available.

The reach adjust set screws back out regularly on both sets that I've had. Loctite helps. Next time the reach will be set PERMINANTLY.

You must modify the mounting bracket and caliper to run 185mm rotors on a Reba 29er fork with a king hub.

On the good side: once they were installed and broken in, they felt really good. They're easy to aling and I like the feel of the brake. They have great power.

Hope
I used the Mono Mini brakes and the 4-piston version for a while and generally liked them. The initial install is a pain. All those little shims to get them lined up are a pain. Once it is done, it is done. The old ones did not allow you to change rotor size without changing calipers. (Some 07 models change that both of the complaints I've had so far.)

Hope brakes squeal like crazy if the setup or alignment is even just slightly off or if you're using new rotors/pads. Oddly enough that is a minor annoyance for me. I usually get them set up right and can put up with the noise while the pads/rotors break in.

The tiny hex bolts that are/were used to hold the brake resevoirs shut are easy to strip. Getting them out isn't difficult. It is, however, very delicate work.

On the good side: While the hopes didn't have as much power as the Juicy7s, they have much more modulation. I love the feel of these brakes.

I really like that the hardware is so easily available.

Hope's bleed process is simple and complete. It takes time and care, but in the end it is EASY to completely remove air from the system.

I'd love to hear from folks who have some experience with brakes. If someone can try to change my mind about Hayes, I'd be willing to listen. The El Caminos looked interesting and were a significant departure from the Hayes brakes of the past.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Pete

[Nick]

Oh yeah... One more thing.

For those who say you haven't blead your brakes in 6 or 7 years, please make sure that you bleed your brakes before travelling to the Rockies or Sierras. Pretty much all brake fluids absorb water which reduces its boiling point significantly. That causes brake fade. You won't notice it on this side of the Mississippi, but you'll be in for a rude awakening on a 30-40 minute long downhill in Colorado if you don't have fresh fluid. :D

Take care,

Pete


Oh , don't worry, I was awoken at the super bowl sunday ride in harrisonburg when both of my levers went to the bar. I think it was from the cold - it was around 10 degrees. Once they warmed up on the long DH, they started working again, but it was super sketch for a little bit. It's time to bleed.

[halfinch]

As I read about the Shimanos, one down side is that they are REALLY expensive. An XTR setup for front and rear brakes (180mm front and 160mm rear) would cost well over $600. XT would drop that a fair amount. They're still pricey.

Thanks again.

Pete

pete,
i'm not a bling kind of guy, so i've been please with the deore set up. you're not forced to run shimano shifters, (i now prefer sram for my gearies) and price wise it was quite economical.

you're more than welcome to borrow my fisher to give the shimano's a test run some time. it's a 19" x-cal 29er frame, which might fit you. i have other toys, so loaning it out to you doesn't present a problem.

[DaveG]

Oh yeah... One more thing.

For those who say you haven't blead your brakes in 6 or 7 years, please make sure that you bleed your brakes before travelling to the Rockies or Sierras. Pretty much all brake fluids absorb water which reduces its boiling point significantly. That causes brake fade. You won't notice it on this side of the Mississippi, but you'll be in for a rude awakening on a 30-40 minute long downhill in Colorado if you don't have fresh fluid. :D

Take care,

Pete

I went down the Ribbon in Fruita/Porc in Moab on a pair of XT 4-pots that hadn't had any work done on them since 2002. Not a problem :)

Since a lot of downhillers used these brakes I think they're pretty good for a XC weenie like me.

I'm looking forward to getting some time on the new Formula Oro 24 brakes I have on my new Turner. They look sweet, and the lever feel is very good. They're light as well :)

The Oro 18 brakes (w/o the lever travel adjust) go for around 130 bucks per brake?

Dave

[BikerMiker]

Love the Juicy 7s and Carbons. No problems with lots of miles...

I've been riding on the 8" rotors with the El Camino brakes. Nice. I'm not a fan of the location of the pivot. Ergonomics are important to me and the Juicys feel better in my hands.

I like my old Hayes brakes from 2000 and have NEVER bled them. They work great on the single but I don't like the lever rattle... I could replace them, but that bike is supposed to be LOW maintenance so I just live with it.

Shimano makes some nice stuff but I'm not in love with them. Not enough power in my experience. Too much modulation in terms of a lack of stopping power unless you REALLY hog down on 'em.

Good luck. You probably can't go wrong. Regarding the Magura's that Jed is running: I asked Spec'd about those brakes (I have concerns) and the first thing I was told was 'They'll be way on top of any issues you have' which made me less and more nervous at the same time. I'm glad Jed is having good luck so far.

mike

[frozin]

Hey, I've been riding 2007 Hope Mini's for about a week now, and having used the older ones before, I can easily say the new version is amazingly better. The first day I had some squeal after riding through water, but now that's gone and I haven't heard any noise since. So far I haven't had any fade issue, but that is always a tough one with new brakes- we'll see what happens, but so far these are the best brakes I have ever owned. Compared to Marta's, El Camino's (I actually had 2 pair of those at once, and could never get either to run very well) Nine's (They were great brakes but I didn't like the levers)

The biggest improvement to me is the fact that there is no need for the shims anymore. I was able to get them set up and riding very quickly and didn't even need to bleed them, but the cables do need to be trimmed. I decided to run them long and replace the hoses with Goodridge as soon as I get the chance. Great brakes though, I suggest giving them another chance :)