Avalon - Lewis Clark / Technical Trail Updates

[crashmore]

The following update on the current situation regarding the unofficial jump trails commonly referred to around here as Lewis and Clark is direct from Eric our trail liaison and includes the latest info as of this posting. This topic comes up frequently as of late so I am adding this as a sitcky for easy reference.
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Patapsco Skills Area

Tons of stuff to respond to here, sorry this is so long. Hopefully this will shed some light on the facts. I'm Eric by the way, your faithful Patapsco Valley State Park Trail Liaison.

- We started this adventure on April 9.2006. < fast forward > A meeting is scheduled next week with the Deputy Secretary of DNR, who if I understand the org chart correctly, is two steps away from the Governor. We've talked to every person in between within their management structure and have yet to hear from anyone that this is a bad idea. Getting someone to officially let us do it though has proven elusive. We remain confident in our proposal and will continue to request authorization to begin construction.

- Our proposal will give the renegades more than they want. When we met with a crowd of users back in December we asked what they wanted, we encouraged them to use their imagination. There will be more opportunities to shape the technical trail features or TTF's, lest we forget, our proposal was designed by the guy that built the Florida stuff, it will be... well, this is a direct quote from the proposal about it:
'Phase 1 of the new facility proposes the construction of two challenge areas and a challenge trail. Natural materials will be used (rock, soil, and rot-resistant logs) to create enhanced natural features such as log-overs, rock sections, berms, and jumps. The challenge trail will provide enhanced natural TTFs along a condensed corridor, with the features being available to bicyclists riding in the downhill direction. This phase will also include the construction of a “pump track,” which is a circular course for improving bike handling skills at a reduced risk to the rider.'

- In the course of our conversations with DNR staff we have brought up items like equestrian jumps courses, advanced ropes courses and skateparks already present in DNR managed parks across Maryland.

- Liability is a major issue but so is sustainability, environmental impact and user conflict. Together these issues have proven formitable in our attempts to get approval to begin construction.

- Quoting again from the proposal:
'The Hilton trailhead is good choice for the skills area because of the campgrounds, independent address, established parking facility, and family-based amenities. An independent address allows maintenance and emergency vehicles to quickly locate the facility.'

- Horses have been regular visitors to Lewis & Clark since at least last fall.

- A rider who happens to work for DNR checks out Lewis & Clark unofficially very regularly. They know the timeline of most of the structures out there.

- The trail crew have posted signs multiple times within the confines of Lewis & Clark, even attempted to close the entrances once. Only to have their efforts torn down and shredded or completely removed. Was this action taken by the builders or riders? It could have been either.

- MORE is not going to go in and tear out Lewis & Clark.

- Our MTB access is not currently threatened by Lewis & Clark. I'll let you know when / if it begins to head in that direction. DNR understands this is the work of one or two people / groups and not representative of the general population of mountain bikers nor MORE. I've been working with Patapsco's staff since at least 1997 ( the details are a little fuzzy ). I'm going to look further into the history but I don't recall any problems with bike access at Patapsco in all that time. We did lose a little singletrack in that time but I don't know that our access on a whole was ever in jeopardy. We have always enjoyed a good working relationship at Patapsco.

- I've forwarded bikescience's message about the closures to Amy, our primary contact with Patapsco and the person responsible for the work I think you are referring to ( Connector Trail between Morning Choice and Ridge ? ). I suggested she be more diligent about signage, hopefully it will open a conversation about communication to all users when trail changes are required. They've done it correctly before, at least with signage, but they could do a better job through the website or something. There was a scheduling mishap on this one and signage is being created.

[escatmore]

This just in from Amy:

I just found a new skills area (bike park) off Buzzards Rock Trail. Looks like MTB's are riding the skinny's near the power line and parking area. From there the trail goes down to the railroad tunnel. It's more then half mile long. We will be closing it tomorrow as part of my volunteer day.

Stop it! < yeah I know I'm preaching to the choir >

eric

[laxdad]

why would you even consider taking down that trail. you it is people like you that i cant stand. that trail is not hurting anyone. it is the only place where someone can go and have fun. if all you want is to ride nice flat ground then ride the damn paved roads. just b/c you dont like that stuff does not mean you have to ride it. you and other ones like you arethe reason why i dont like riding there any longer. so you and all your little high seat riding buddies can have the whole park to yourselfs. i hope that you never venture outside patapsco b/c it seems like you will be over your head when it comes down to what bike riding is all about. just think about that. try taking a chance and ride down that trail . pretty soon the only way you can ride there is if you we let guys like you build what you want. and screw everyone else. it just pains me that i cant go and enjoy myself there b/c you want the trails only you can do. that is the reason why lewis and clark was torn down. if you think you cant ride the trail odds are that you suck and you will get hurt when you go down the trail ssssooooo......stay off of the trail. with all due respect.

[Squirrel Girl]

why would you even consider taking down that trail. you it is people like you that i cant stand. that trail is not hurting anyone. it is the only place where someone can go and have fun. if all you want is to ride nice flat ground then ride the damn paved roads. just b/c you dont like that stuff does not mean you have to ride it. you and other ones like you arethe reason why i dont like riding there any longer. so you and all your little high seat riding buddies can have the whole park to yourselfs. i hope that you never venture outside patapsco b/c it seems like you will be over your head when it comes down to what bike riding is all about. just think about that. try taking a chance and ride down that trail . pretty soon the only way you can ride there is if you we let guys like you build what you want. and screw everyone else. it just pains me that i cant go and enjoy myself there b/c you want the trails only you can do. that is the reason why lewis and clark was torn down. if you think you cant ride the trail odds are that you suck and you will get hurt when you go down the trail ssssooooo......stay off of the trail. with all due respect.http://forums.caves.org/images/smilies/chillpill.gif

Is there a gremlin in the community that keeps spreading the rumor that MORE closes trails because no one in MORE can ride technical trails? Does that gremlin live with Elvis?

For years MORE has worked with land managers to increase the availability of technical features. But we also have to work within the limits the land managers put on us. Can we make a sticky that explains this so that every few months when someone thinks MORE is sucky, we can point them there with lots of examples?

FWIW, I can't ride those technical featuers, but I FULLY SUPPORT trails and features way too hard for me to ride, so long as they're approved. Also, many others in MORE can ride super technical features--jumps, skinnies, you name it--I've watched 'em.

[riderx]

Dear tool:
The park staff is closing it down, none of the people here. Eric was just passing along the info.

[g_barr]

why would you even consider...
AGAIN?! This is the second hater in a week! Laxdad, I suggest you get more involved instead of just registering and ranting.

Thanks for the update Eric.

[urbaindk]

We went and checked it out last night. The trail itself is still there but the majority of features are gone.

IMO, it was kind of a waste of the park's time to go in there, as this trail was largely abandoned anyway. The top half had reverted back into the deer path it probably originally was. It wasn't anything like the old Lewis and Clark trails as far as density of construction goes, just a few things here and there. But that's their call to make so I'm not arguing. The trail wasn't even worth arguing over.

[urbaindk]

that is the reason why lewis and clark was torn down. if you think you cant ride the trail odds are that you suck and you will get hurt when you go down the trail ssssooooo......stay off of the trail. with all due respect.

I was like you once like you and like you, I was wrong on so many levels.

Like G-barr says, get involved or S the F up.

[BikerMiker]

Dude, me, Eric and other MORE members were DIRECTLY responsible for Lewis and Clarke staying open for about 2 years after the park wanted to tear it down. I used to ride there all the time. I love that stuff and have been working with the park to try and get something BETTER than Lewis and Clarke built legally.

Funny thing is, we've been asked to talk to other mtn bikers about NOT creating illegal trails to show a good-faith effort that we (me, you, everyone) are willing to play by the rules so that park staff can go out on a limb for us to support this type of project.

And by the way, I've seen most of the people posting here ride that stuff. Fast. On hardtails and singlespeed and DH bikes.

Sorry you are so mis-informed. Recognize that little pic next to my handle? Lewis and Clarke.

mike

[escatmore]

Wow

5/17 9:00 AM Patapsco Trail Day

Laxdad - consider yourself personally invited. If you want a change you have to show up and speak out, otherwise you appear to be trolling for attention.

eric

[kevin]

i hope that you never venture outside patapsco b/c it seems like you will be over your head when it comes down to what bike riding is all about. just think about that. try taking a chance and ride down that trail .

Ha! Clearly you haven't seen Eric ride. I saw him ride the big stream gap at Lewis and Clark on his rigid singlespeed. I can assure you he was not in over his head and had quite a lot of fun doing it. :)

So, like others have posted, you are missing a big part of story and are missing the big issues surrounding the rogue skills trails. Since you are clearly passionate about that kind of riding, you need to get involved.

We're having a trail maintenance day at Avalon on May 17. Why don't you join us and get your feet wet?

Kevin

[laxdad]

i am not trying to get attention. i would like to say that maybe i over reacted a tad. its just that everytime there is anything rometly cool it gets messed with. bbut when you right stuff like that you better be to eat the stuff that comes with it. so ia m ready for you ding dongs to rip into me.

[g_barr]

i am not trying to get attention. i would like to say that maybe i over reacted a tad. its just that everytime there is anything rometly cool it gets messed with.
Yup. Seems like it. But the whole issue is very complicated by laws, policies, land owner/manager missions, rider wants, other park users, park neighbors... To save you some time, I've looked for some MORE threads you might be interested in reading. You'll probably notice a recurring theme often involving the same people - some of whom are probably the area's most skilled riders. We all want more trails and more challenging trails. I don't think anyone in MORE wants to "dumb down" anything. If that were the case, we'd all be lobbying land owners to start laying asphalt!

is lewis and clark ttf gone? (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9098)
Local jump spot bulldozed (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10705)
Sanctioned Patapsco Freeride Area – Update (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8070)
The Avalon Situation (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7169)
Rogue trails at Lake Fairfax (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10993)

If you can get a hold of a copy, the IMBA's Managing Mountain Biking (https://secure2.convio.net/imba/site/Ecommerce/206918050?VIEW_PRODUCT=true&product_id=2741&store_id=1121) is good reading.

[bikerRob]

05/17/08 >> Hi all. It's been quite while since I've last posted up. I guess that means I've been busy. Since I routinely check the conditions posted for Avalon I really don't know how this thread got by me. With all the rain we've had this year I really haven't had too many chances to ride Patapsco. Last week I finally got the chance to do a nice ride on the Ho. Co. side. As I approached the entrance to the old Lewis & Clark trail I stopped and decided to check out to see what the Park did when they removed the TT features. Boy was I surprised. I guess I expected the whole trail to be completely shut down but what I found was a new undulating section of fast and
sweet single track...minus the outlaw technical features. I'm going to be honest here and admit that I really didn't care one way or the other about the TT features that were built there. Since it was "outlaw" to begin with my attitude was, "If it stays, fine". "If it goes...whatever".
When I first read what laxdad said about the proposed trail closure, unlike the other MORE posters I didn't think he was commenting on what MORE was doing but rather on what Amy ( a park employee ) had said.

This just in from Amy:

I just found a new skills area (bike park) off Buzzards Rock Trail. Looks like MTB's are riding the skinny's near the power line and parking area. From there the trail goes down to the railroad tunnel. It's more then half mile long. We will be closing it tomorrow as part of my volunteer day.

Stop it! < yeah I know I'm preaching to the choir >

eric

Somehow it is seems to me that it was the MORE people that got all defensive when no one was criticizing what MORE was doing. I read what the guy said. No where did he mention MORE. The way I see it the guy was just venting at the park people. I've never ridden the trail that was being talked about but I can understand when a particular trail that you ride on a regular basis is closed off or changed. Sometimes the park doesn't always do what we would what them to do but hey...they're the ones in charge. When the park decides to close or change a trail they should be ready to take some criticism if others don't agree with what has been done. I suppose it would of been nice if laxdad had been a little more diplomatic with his posted criticism but not everyone is a Henry Kissinger. ;) Laxdad, I sorry your beloved TT features were torn down but at least you still have trail to ride. Next time you see something like this happen try talking to the park managers (*not that it will do any good )...Chill....and remember a lot of the people with MORE want the same thing that you do. (**note...disclaimer...If laxdad did intend to trash MORE people then well...disregard my entire post..:D )

[escatmore]

05/17/08 >> unlike the other MORE posters I didn't think he was commenting on what MORE was doing but rather on what Amy ( a park employee ) had said.

<snip>

Nice catch, the posts reek of a troll though, in my humble opinion.

Next time you see something like this happen try talking to the park managers (*not that it will do any good )

I cannot more strongly disagree. Working with your managers is the only way to get anything done. Want a list of good stuff that happened? Just ask, I'm dying to gloat. Is it all roses? No, but a ton is good! Very good.

eric

[werace424]

I cannot more strongly disagree. Working with your managers is the only way to get anything done. Want a list of good stuff that happened? Just ask, I'm dying to gloat. Is it all roses? No, but a ton is good! Very good.

eric

I agree 100% Eric. I don't kow the particulars of Patapsco, but good, honest, and candid, (but tactful), conversation is "our" best weapon in getting more, new and better trails.

[urbaindk]

<snip>

Nice catch, the posts reek of a troll though, in my humble opinion.



I cannot more strongly disagree. Working with your managers is the only way to get anything done. Want a list of good stuff that happened? Just ask, I'm dying to gloat. Is it all roses? No, but a ton is good! Very good.

eric

I thought it was a troll too.

As many of you know, I tend towards the freeride side of things and was pretty hot back when L&C got closed down. I've settled down a bit since then, but I can certainly see where Laxdad was coming from.

I've also started working with Eric, our MORE Patapsco trail liaison. There is no doubt that sometime riders who traditionally ride XC vs. FR and DH will see the same section of trail a little differently. Getting out in the woods with Eric and pointing little things out here and there and expressing wants and needs from the DH/FR side of things seems to make a difference. He's been really receptive to my ideas and criticisms. He runs it up the chain of command at Patapsco and then always reports back with details of why it will or will not work. The more I correspond and work with him, the more I feel like he has our best interests in mind (and that he really doesn't see things that differently afterall).

I guess my point here isn't really to laud Eric ad nauseum, rather to say, without input he may or may not know what to ask the park for and as they say, it never hurts to ask. So as I said in my initial response to laxdad; get involved!