Fh Trail running race on Sunday

[tombowti]

There will be a running event at FH this Sunday 11/19

If it rains Friday, Saturday, Sunday, the yellow trail (entrance loop) will be used as a warm up for the runners so the mtb trail will be closed from 9 -11

If there is no rain, you may use the trail at any time but do not go past the yellow gate - the parking lot is open only to those who are involved with the running event. Bikers must park outside as the gate which will be locked at 11ish. The ranger would not be happy it he had to wait for bikers who were not supposed to be in the park. I can't stress this enough - we don't want unhappy rangers.

If there is any doubt on the open/close the ranger will post on the Fh trail line
703 250 2473

[peter6061]

So what you're saying is IF it rains on any of those days, many runners will slop through the mud on the entrance loop of the mountain bike trail instead of ruining their trail? Haven't we discussed trail damage to death? Haven't we all agreed that the impact of a footprint in the mud is more damaging than a narrow tire? And wouldn't we choose to NOT ride the trail in these conditions in order to minimize trail damage?

I'm not trying to start a debate here. I'm just curious as to why runners would use the mtb trail at all if it were wet or muddy.

Thank you for the notification and information.

[drewdane]

So what you're saying is IF it rains on any of those days, many runners will slop through the mud on the entrance loop of the mountain bike trail instead of ruining their trail? Haven't we discussed trail damage to death? Haven't we all agreed that the impact of a footprint in the mud is more damaging than a narrow tire? And wouldn't we choose to NOT ride the trail in these conditions in order to minimize trail damage?

I'm not trying to start a debate here. I'm just curious as to why runners would use the mtb trail at all if it were wet or muddy.

Thank you for the notification and information.
I think this is absolutely a fair question to raise, and I would hope MORE intends to bring it up with the park authority.

[Vecsus]

Because runners are more important that mountain bikers. So are horses and hikers. The bikes must yield to everyone. That includes trails in addition to right of way.

Next year we should host a race at FH that uses some of the running trail. Deny parking to anyone without a bike in their vehicle.

[TrailVictim]

Isn't it the Back Yard Burn that's being held that day?

[punga]

So what you're saying is IF it rains on any of those days, many runners will slop through the mud on the entrance loop of the mountain bike trail instead of ruining their trail? Haven't we discussed trail damage to death? Haven't we all agreed that the impact of a footprint in the mud is more damaging than a narrow tire? And wouldn't we choose to NOT ride the trail in these conditions in order to minimize trail damage?

I'm not trying to start a debate here. I'm just curious as to why runners would use the mtb trail at all if it were wet or muddy.

Thank you for the notification and information.
Playing devil's advocate here: I've seen MTB races in the mud (not at FH, but in general)? If the rules that applies there (the race must go on) doesn't it apply to other sports to?

punga!

[drewdane]

Playing devil's advocate here: I've seen MTB races in the mud (not at FH, but in general)? If the rules that applies there (the race must go on) doesn't it apply to other sports to?

punga!
Sure, but why on "our" trail? Why can't the runners warm up on a short loop of their own section of the park instead of kicking us out for a day? What's up with that?

[TrailVictim]

You've got to be kidding....

[peter6061]

I don't have a problem with runners running a race in the mud, or anyone for that reason. My question more has to do with why they are using the mountain bike trail. We are so careful to limit the amount of use these trails get when wet. Some of the trails in the immediate area actually get shut down for the winter in order to minimize impact (Schaeffer Farms). I know I spend most of the winter riding at the Shed or out in GWNF where there is better drainage.

I understand the idea of yielding to all other users and respect that, but last time I was at Fountainhead (~a month ago?) I wandered over to the big sign in the main parking lot with the map of the area and Bull Run on it. It showed the various trails and who was allowed on each. The mountain bike trail was listed as exclusive for bikes. The Bull Run trail is exclusively for horses and foot traffic. Now I've never had a problem with a runner or hiker using our trail, but I would hope they would treat it with the same respect we do and not use it in a way that could potentially cause it damage. I would think the Park would enforce the same rules upon everyone.

If they want to use it for a running race or adventure race on occasion, fine. But don't do it in the mud, or if you have to, use your own trail. We try to stay off our trails when wet, and others should be forced to abide by the same rules.

[Vecsus]

You've got to be kidding....

This is a legitmate issue for mountain bikers to be concerned about. Why is it us that always has to give way to everyone else? Not like we're asking for something extra, just access to what has been set aside for us. It would be whining to complain about a denied request to use a running trail for a bike race. Mountain bikers have always had an uphill battle on access issues. Things like this FH closure would be fine if cyclists had reciprocal rights to the use of the running trail. We don't ask for anything special so why should they?

[drewdane]

You've got to be kidding....
Oh give me a break. Why do MTBers always have to be the ones to bend over and take it? That's Bullsh*t!

(edit: Vecsus said it better, but it's still BS.)

[Vecsus]

That's Bullsh*t!

(edit: Vecsus said it better, but it's still BS.)


I beg to differ. You're comment is a more concise version of what I dedicated a paragraph to. :p

[TrailVictim]

Oh give me a break. Why do MTBers always have to be the ones to bend over and take it? That's Bullsh*t!

(edit: Vecsus said it better, but it's still BS.)



The same person that you feel is making MTBers bend over is the same person who hosts one of the best MTB series in the metro area.

I doubt Jim is out to screw anyone over. It's not like the runners are going to go do a 8 mile warm up prior to the race.

The plan they have in place should it rain keeps any one trail from taking to much of a beating.

[1derwoman]

This is an interesting "discussion" (whine) to follow. I am both an avid mtn biker and runner. I will be in the BYB race on Sunday. And then I plan to ride with MORE after the run. Although, maybe i should hide my face b/c I'm an evil runner? :)

I understand the inconvenience that this causes. But, is this really an instance of us-vs-them? Maybe just some bad planning on the part of EX2? Or even just a once-in-a-year conflict? EX2 plans the the Cranky Monkey, and probably want to keep MTBers happy, so you might make your grievance directly with them on this one.

[Vecsus]

The plan they have in place should it rain keeps any one trail from taking to much of a beating.

If they don't want their trail beaten up then they should reschedule the race. I would be equally angry if someone were holding a mountain bike race in muddy conditions on a trail that could not absorb the impact.

[Vecsus]

I understand the inconvenience that this causes. But, is this really an instance of us-vs-them? Maybe just some bad planning on the part of EX2? Or even just a once-in-a-year conflict? EX2 plans the the Cranky Monkey, and probably want to keep MTBers happy, so you might make your grievance directly with them on this one.

When Ex2 runs a mountain bike race that uses a runners-only trail for warm-up laps then I will testify to their equity.

[TrailVictim]

http://www.ex2adventures.com/contact-info.php

[notrelatedtoted]

The original post doesn't make any sense to me...

you mean to say the ex2 is going to run their race regardless of rain? Why would rain change where they should warm up? And why can't runners run on the road to warm up?

:confused:

Regarding folks running on the mtb trail that would otherwise be closed due to rain, that is a legitimate complaint. But we get exclusive use of other trails (Wakefield) during other ex2 events, so I have no problems with sharing a trail for another one of their events.

[jabberwocky]

Ok, the whole mountainbiker/runner pissing contest aside, does anyone know what time they will be shutting down the race and opening up the parking lot? I am considering moving my ride (currently scheduled for 11am) back an hour or so to help avoid conflicts. Will that actually help, or does it not matter?

I don't mind parking out at the gate if I have to though.

[drtnsnw]

This is a legitmate issue for mountain bikers to be concerned about. Why is it us that always has to give way to everyone else? Not like we're asking for something extra, just access to what has been set aside for us. It would be whining to complain about a denied request to use a running trail for a bike race. Mountain bikers have always had an uphill battle on access issues. Things like this FH closure would be fine if cyclists had reciprocal rights to the use of the running trail. We don't ask for anything special so why should they?
I agree. Also, how many runners do you see doing trail work?

[drewdane]

This is an interesting "discussion" (whine) to follow. I am both an avid mtn biker and runner. I will be in the BYB race on Sunday. And then I plan to ride with MORE after the run. Although, maybe i should hide my face b/c I'm an evil runner? :)

I understand the inconvenience that this causes. But, is this really an instance of us-vs-them? Maybe just some bad planning on the part of EX2? Or even just a once-in-a-year conflict? EX2 plans the the Cranky Monkey, and probably want to keep MTBers happy, so you might make your grievance directly with them on this one.
Nobody's saying runners are evil (strange maybe. But evil? Anyway, I digress...)

Honestly, I don't particularly mind the inconvenience, and I'm sure the race organizer is trying his best to minimize trail impact and all that.

However, it bothers me that an allegedly mountain bike-only trail is being closed to mountain bikers for the convenience of non-mountain bikers. This strikes me as a double-standard. What does it say when MTBers are barred from their own trail for the convenience of another user group? What does it say when MTBers are barred from a trail so that other group can potentially trash the MTB trail instead of their own trail?

[CRAIG2]

I agree. Also, how many runners do you see doing trail work?


None. They don't want to needlessly dirty their fancy sneakers, and besides, they're always too busy running from something! heheheheheheh :rolleyes: :D

[drtnsnw]

None. They don't want to needlessly dirty their fancy sneakers, and besides, they're always too busy running from something! heheheheheheh :rolleyes: :D
They gots them fancy sneakers... huh huh huh huh

[drewdane]

The same person that you feel is making MTBers bend over is the same person who hosts one of the best MTB series in the metro area.

I doubt Jim is out to screw anyone over. It's not like the runners are going to go do a 8 mile warm up prior to the race.

The plan they have in place should it rain keeps any one trail from taking to much of a beating.
Honestly, I don't care if he hands out free bikes to orphaned puppies in his spare time. Nobody said he's trying to screw anyone over, but shutting mountain bikers out of an allegedly MTB-only trail for the convenience of another user group is thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Seems to me the plan they should have in place if it rains would be to postpone the race. After all, we're told to stay away when it's mucky, and rightly so. Why do other trail users get a "pass", even if it's "just one race"? :confused:

[liznotter]

I agree. Also, how many runners do you see doing trail work? Okay, so I do agree with the point that they shouldn't close the mtb trail at FH so that runners can use it. At the same time I have to point out that many MORE members/users are runners too...in fact, I can name at least 5 who recently completed the Marine Corps Marathon. As Cabin John trail liaison and an avid runner, I can attest that PLENTY of runners help out on the trails. At two sparsely-attended recent CJ work days, trail runners and walkers outnumbered the mtb riders helping reroute a trail and clear trail debris.

MORE members bristle at being painted with the same brush as irresponsible trail users. How about we give runners the same respect?

Liz

[rockhead]

I think the enthusiasm you guys are showing on this issue is fantastic! Lots of territorial energy and a good healthy reference to the all-important voluntary contribution of trailwork! Mountain bikers made that trail and we shouldn't be kicked off of it! Although, much of the original trail in there actually preceded mountain biking and was carved out and handed over to us, so maybe it was created by someone else, but I digress...

Playing devil's advocate here: I've seen MTB races in the mud (not at FH, but in general)? If the rules that applies there (the race must go on) doesn't it apply to other sports too?


Right on, Punga! Races go on, pretty much no matter the weather - both bike and running races. Not only that, but how many races do you see, held in whatever weather, on multi-use trail or even on trails that are only open to mountain bikers during the race? Don't they close those trails to hikers, runners, horses, etc., during those races? Absolutely! Do you think there are runner's blogs full of whining tyrades about those d#$% bikers kicking them off their trails that they worked so hard to pave with dog crap? You bet there is! But that doesn't mean it's really unfair.

So when IMBA advocates sharing the trail, they know what they're saying. Kinda like when you have to share the TV with your little sister - you can't watch the "X-Games Finals" at the same time she's trying to watch that same rerun of "That's So Raven" (ack!) - sometimes sharing means taking turns. Would it kill you to spare 2 friggin hours????

In the end, the concern is great, but I would recommend saving it for the real closures - the permanent ones!

[DaveG]

Honestly, I don't care if he hands out free bikes to orphaned puppies in his spare time. Nobody said he's trying to screw anyone over, but shutting mountain bikers out of an allegedly MTB-only trail for the convenience of another user group is thoughtless and inconsiderate.

Seems to me the plan they should have in place if it rains would be to postpone the race. After all, we're told to stay away when it's mucky, and rightly so. Why do other trail users get a "pass", even if it's "just one race"? :confused:

It's one freaking day. Why is everbody getting so bent out of shape? I seriously doubt any real damage will get done, and I'm sure we can survive being kept out of the mountain biking mecca that is fountainhead for one day.

If the county/park gives them the OK to ride the trails that day then they have that right. I guarantee that MTBers would be out there destroying the trails right after a rain if FH would let them (i.e. Avalon)

Dave

[dan_hudson]

How about Drew, James, and some of the other irrate people here talk to EX2 and Mr Harman about a dandy point-to-point MTB event on the Blue Trail next season? Doesn't even have to be a race - even better would be a fund-raising fun ride. Charge a fee for minimal support, shuttle service back to the other end, etc. Don't see that NVRPA would have much grounds for objecting with the precident set on the "MTB trail" over many years.

[ThatHurt]

I'm in the boat that they've got plenty of trail to use, we don't. For me it is not about the wear and tear on the trail, its the that there are 18+ miles of trail running from Fountainhead to Bull Run park (sweet trail in fact), how much of that is open to preride before a race on the mtb trail at FH? How much of that is EVER open to non horse/foot traffic? It is all park (read tax payer) property. The park has allowed trails to be built by and for riding and riders. They (and it is their choice to do so) are allowing the users of Non MTB trail to use the MTB trail, maybe or maybe not to the detriment of the trail, by why allow it in the first place?

Not being a MORE member (maybe time to anty up the $$) does MORE have a sign saying "This trail brought to YOU by Mountain Bikers" that can be prominently displayed the day of the race?

[mtbmore]

First and formeost it is never the intent of Jim or EX2 to run a race on trails that are wet; MTB trails or otherwise. In other words, if Jim had to postpone a Cranky Monkey Race because the trails were too wet, he certainly would not run a running race on the same trails. There was some discussion between the Park staff and Jim on options if we have rain in the next few days. No decisions were made as of today. So if the Park deems the MTB Trail open on sunday it will be open for all MTBers to use the whole day. The only issue will be that there could be cars lined up all the way to road for the race so parking may be an issue. In regards to parking, the park is officially closed and anyone that would be riding on the MTB trail would have to park outside the gate anyway.

I have been working with Jim for over 7 years and there is not a single promoter today that worries more about how his race impacts the environment than Jim. He has postponed many Cranky Monkey races in the last 4 years as proof of his commitment to the trails.


Scud

[tombowti]

I misspoke – I screwed-up The post should have read, “If it rains earlier in the week the trails will be closed Sunday” Why? Because the horse trails, which are used for the race, need approximately one full week to dry after a rain. Our trails are opened 24 hours after moderate rain.

As a personal note; when I saw this discussion, I immediately called Jim and apologized for casting him in such a light. My past encounters with Jim have always proved him to be a true advocate for mountain biking and for Fountainhead. I have the greatest personal and professional respect for him and his work.

I also apologize to the MORE membership for precipitating this discussion. Please be assured that in the future I will post timely and accurate information ~tom

[mtbmore]

Tom, I took the liberty to change the subject header to reflect that a running race will be held at Fountainhead on Sunday. It is important to let people know of the race even if it is not on the MTB trail because it will affect things like parking and the like.

Scud

[Vecsus]

Maybe I misunderstood the primary thrust of this thread but it does not appear that anyone was attacking Jim or EX2 directly. The beef is over the concept that mountain bikers play second-fiddle to every other trail user. Just can't wrap my head around why the bike trail would be closed to bikers so runners have a place to warm up.

About half the time I ride FH I come across hikers or runners on the bike trail. When they start respecting the posted rules then maybe I can accept allowances for special circumstances like a race. Friendly reminders about the trail are nearly always met with "yeah, I know". Wonderful. How many sets of treads on the running trail would it take for someone to flip out and make the letters on the "BIKES ON BIKE TRAILS ONLY" sign even larger?

[mtbmore]

Maybe I misunderstood the primary thrust of this thread but it does not appear that anyone was attacking Jim or EX2 directly. The beef is over the concept that mountain bikers play second-fiddle to every other trail user. Just can't wrap my head around why the bike trail would be closed to bikers so runners have a place to warm up.


Actaully there were at least one post that did attack Jim directly. He clearly was not going to give runners something he would not do for bikers. The Bike Trail was never going to be closed so runners could warm up. That was a total misunderstanding on the part of Tom. I do not disagree with you that runners are treated with a double standard at Fountainhead since the MTB Trail has been closed in the past for running events. It has been awhile since that has happened but it will no doubt happen again.

Scud

[drewdane]

Confusion should be over since Jim was never going to shut out mountain bikers for the convenience of anyone.
Thanks Scott.

Especially since this whole kerfluffle was based on a misunderstanding, I apologize for getting snippy.

For the record, however, in response to a few other comments made, to me this was never about "MTB vs. Runners", the condition of the trail, my inconvenience, whether or not EX2 Adventures cares, etc.

To me, it was entirely about the perception created that when it comes right down to it, the interests of Mountain Bikers are not as important as those of other groups. But again, the whole thing was a misunderstanding anyway, so.... OWT!

[mtbmore]

Thanks Drew. Your perception is true. It comes form over 50 years or more of influence from hikers and equestrians convincing Land managers that they should belong and have precedent over "new" users. The only way we change that and we are slowly is to keep being good stewards of the trail and continue to educate all users on how to maintain our valuable natural resource.

Scud

[MyOtherBrotherL]

....About half the time I ride FH I come across hikers or runners on the bike trail.

Now that the fighting is over and everybody has Kissed and made up, I can make a comment.

So - I was out at Rosey yesterday learning to cut trail with one of the mechanized machines. After we wrapped up for the day, I got into a long discussion with the IMBA folks about FH (More on that in a different thread). The one comment made that is appropriate for this thread is that we need our MTB only trail to become multi-use. If trail runners are the first group to want to share our trail - So be it.

Multi-use trails have many more benefits than single use ones. When it comes to getting grants for expansion and other kinds of work, multi-use trails have priority over single use ones. In no way should we be encouraging non riders to leave the FH MTB trail. Rosey is in excellent example of a multi-use trail where the State (MD) just throws money at the Park for improvements.

Now I know the NVRPA policy on multi-use better than most. And I also recognize that it will take years of DEFACTO multi-use to turn into legal use. But I have hope.

Finally - Why do I want this?? (Besides the money)- Well there is a HUGE chunk of Land on the back side of the Reservoir that currently doesn't have any trails on it. We can't use this land because in order to get to it, we would have cross an existing horse trail. Currently the NVRPA single use policy does not allow us to even cross an existing equestrian trail. Like I said - I’m still holding out hope for that "Some Day" scenario.

L

[Vecsus]

I agree 100% with everything posted just above. I had a long talk with Mike Van Abel (exec director of IMBA) while waiting for him to get stiched up after a crash at FH. We spoke about multi-use trail philosophy and the desire to "evolve" to the point where we can all get along on the same trails. If they were to rip down the restrictive signs at FH I would cheer. But only if ALL the restrictions came down - not just the ones on the bike trail. This is like the START treaties with the russians in the 80s....it takes both side standing down together in order to make the process work.

The reason I am currently so anti-runner on the bike trail is because there is no reciprocal use of the running trail. All or nothing.

[JFritsch]

The post should have read, “If it rains earlier in the week the trails will be closed Sunday” Why? Because the horse trails, which are used for the race, need approximately one full week to dry after a rain. Our trails are opened 24 hours after moderate rain.

LOL this just proves trails designed and built by MTBers are better! :D

[MyOtherBrotherL]

...The reason I am currently so anti-runner on the bike trail is because there is no reciprocal use of the running trail. All or nothing.

Read and understood.

However, you have to know that will never happen. There's no reason for a Détente.

I'm Thinking small. A few years of De-Facto multi-use and then a request to CROSS an equestrian trail. Heck. I don't wanna even ride their trails. We don't have the man power or resources to tackle the problems out on those trails. I've walked them. They have a lot of land and some pretty cool stuff - BUT - Poor Poor trail design.

The FH redesign (When and "IF" that ever happens) may be an eye opener for the NVRPA. An influx of that much money into one of the Parks may cause one or two folks to think, "What have the Horsey's done for me lately".

L

PS Keep in mind most of these idea's are pipe dreams on my part........

[TBLGirl]

Ok, the whole mountainbiker/runner pissing contest aside, does anyone know what time they will be shutting down the race and opening up the parking lot? I am considering moving my ride (currently scheduled for 11am) back an hour or so to help avoid conflicts. Will that actually help, or does it not matter?

I don't mind parking out at the gate if I have to though.


The reason you have to park outside the gate is because the park is officially closed for the season. The BYB has a permit to have the race while the park is closed- so the racers can park inside the gate until the race is over. From now until March the gate to the parking lot will be closed but the trails are still open and you can park on the entrance road leading up to the gate. The time for your ride should be fine as long as everyone parks outside the gate.

[jabberwocky]

The reason you have to park outside the gate is because the park is officially closed for the season. The BYB has a permit to have the race while the park is closed- so the racers can park inside the gate until the race is over. From now until March the gate to the parking lot will be closed but the trails are still open and you can park on the entrance road leading up to the gate. The time for your ride should be fine as long as everyone parks outside the gate.Thanks for the info. I didn't realize they closed the gate this early in the year (I thought it was sometime in December). In any case, I'll make sure everyone parks outside the gate.

[tombowti]

[QUOTE=TBLGirl]The reason you have to park outside the gate is because ...

Just to say it one more time to avoid any confusion, which I hear does happen on occasion-

Fountainhead Park is closed for the season – This includes the parking lot. Even if the gate is open DO NOT DRIVE IN. But yes, the mtb trails are open year round, weather permitting(call 703-250-2473)... Just park on the roadside BEFORE the gate.

The gate will be open on 11/19 only for those who are participating in the race and will be relocked after the race. Again, if you plan to ride next Sunday at Fh, you must park on the roadside, BEFORE the (open) gate.

I’m sure all can understand that I would like to start the week in an uneventful manner which includes not to talking with a very unhappy ranger Sunday Night. And yes, I wish I could go on the ride with you but for an early Thanksgiving dinner. Have fun (and call to be certain the trail are open)~tom