Check out the Chumba EVO

[Odie]

www.chumbaracing.com lemme know what you think....................

Cheers!

[urbaindk]

I don't know about the evo but this is about the ugliest thing I've ever laid eyes on: http://www.chumbaracing.com/dsl.shtml

The DSS and the F4 look uberfly though. I'd be happy to test ride either of those for you, say for the season.

[BikerMiker]

Oof. Not so good-looking if you ask me, which you did. Another seatstay pivot travel bike with brake jack and overly active suspension. No thanks.

mike

[burgh punk]

Oof. Not so good-looking if you ask me, which you did. Another seatstay pivot travel bike with brake jack and overly active suspension. No thanks.

mike


Mike,

Being one that does not know too much about the full-squishy side of mtbing, why would such a frame/bike be a bad thing?

[CRAIG2]

Oof. Not so good-looking if you ask me, which you did. Another seatstay pivot travel bike with brake jack and overly active suspension. No thanks.

mike

Yeah, and it's got a funny name, too!! ;)

[DaveG]

Mike,

Being one that does not know too much about the full-squishy side of mtbing, why would such a frame/bike be a bad thing?


I used to be a big proponent of the Horst Link. I bought into the specialized propaganda that it was the best thing since sliced bread. My beloved Turner went from a HL to a Seatstay pivot bike. I bought a new 5-spot w/ the SS pivot and honestly can't tell the difference. I rode my friends 5-spot w/ the HL, and can't tell a difference between them.

There's an interesting thread on the Turner forum on MTBR where people would get a new non-HL rear end for testing. The vast majority could tell no difference, and a few actually preferred the SS pivot because that thought it was stiffer and climbed a bit better.

Bottom line, there's a LOT more to how a bike rides/performs than where the rear pivot is located. There are a lot of HL bikes that ride great, and a lot that ride like crap. The same can be said for SS pivot bikes.

Ride as many bikes as you can, and try to stay away from the broad generalizations so common in the sport.

Dave

[Billy Mathisen]

I've said enough

[BikerMiker]

I'm not trying to be Mr Specialized, but I have ridden a lot of bikes and prefer the FSR setup. Seatstay pivots are prone to brake jack: that's when your suspension stops working when under hard braking because your chainline gets longer and shorter throughout the travel of the rear wheel. It's really bad on longer travel bikes (see: anything that needs a floating brake arm) so you see a lot of DH racers with rear brake setups that minimize this brake jack. Also, I have experienced a lot of 'pedal feedback' or 'pedal loading' on seatstay pivot bikes (that's where it feels harder to pedal based on your suspension affecting the length of the drivetrain).

I have ridden seatstay pivot AND chainstay pivot bikes quite a lot over the last 14 or so years and I really like the chainstay pivot bikes. They are more active going down hill, under hard braking and still climb really well without a lockout.

One caveat is now that ProPedal, SPV, IFP and MCD technologies have been developed, it's less important that the actual full suspension design be sound. One major drawback for the full sus market from the retail perspective is that most of these technologies are hard for the average person to understand but they understand quite quickly the benefits of full suspension. The positive/negative air chamber and the ProPedal settings can be hard to feel and harder to adjust. Also, anything that damps compression (propedal especially) can lead to an overly harsh ride as your shock is trying to resist compressing while you are hitting bumps because it doesn't know the difference between compression forces created by normal pedaling due to bad suspension design or bumps in the trail.

For a lot of people, they just want a bike in their price range, not the best bike. The other end of that is that some people think that the smaller the manufacturer, the better the bike. I just try to look at the bike as a bike and the way that people will use it. The more technical you want to get with your bike, the more likely you are to be happy with something with a lot of adjustments and fine tuning. If you just want to get on and ride and have it feel good all the time, it's more important to have a bike with a solid design underlying its construction, not overly complicated rear shocks.

I happen to sell Spec'd bikes (and ride a few) so I get pegged with the 'Spec'd guy' thing a lot. Considering I think they make the best bikes on the planet right now (they didn't used to) I'm fine with that. Who knows what I'll be on in another 5 years... I just know that I'll still be riding.

mike

[DaveG]

I'm not trying to be Mr Specialized, but I have ridden a lot of bikes and prefer the FSR setup. Seatstay pivots are prone to brake jack: that's when your suspension stops working when under hard braking because your chainline gets longer and shorter throughout the travel of the rear wheel. It's really bad on longer travel bikes (see: anything that needs a floating brake arm) so you see a lot of DH racers with rear brake setups that minimize this brake jack. Also, I have experienced a lot of 'pedal feedback' or 'pedal loading' on seatstay pivot bikes (that's where it feels harder to pedal based on your suspension affecting the length of the drivetrain).

I have ridden seatstay pivot AND chainstay pivot bikes quite a lot over the last 14 or so years and I really like the chainstay pivot bikes. They are more active going down hill, under hard braking and still climb really well without a lockout.

One caveat is now that ProPedal, SPV, IFP and MCD technologies have been developed, it's less important that the actual full suspension design be sound. One major drawback for the full sus market from the retail perspective is that most of these technologies are hard for the average person to understand but they understand quite quickly the benefits of full suspension. The positive/negative air chamber and the ProPedal settings can be hard to feel and harder to adjust. Also, anything that damps compression (propedal especially) can lead to an overly harsh ride as your shock is trying to resist compressing while you are hitting bumps because it doesn't know the difference between compression forces created by normal pedaling due to bad suspension design or bumps in the trail.

For a lot of people, they just want a bike in their price range, not the best bike. The other end of that is that some people think that the smaller the manufacturer, the better the bike. I just try to look at the bike as a bike and the way that people will use it. The more technical you want to get with your bike, the more likely you are to be happy with something with a lot of adjustments and fine tuning. If you just want to get on and ride and have it feel good all the time, it's more important to have a bike with a solid design underlying its construction, not overly complicated rear shocks.

I happen to sell Spec'd bikes (and ride a few) so I get pegged with the 'Spec'd guy' thing a lot. Considering I think they make the best bikes on the planet right now (they didn't used to) I'm fine with that. Who knows what I'll be on in another 5 years... I just know that I'll still be riding.

mike

Like I said, I used to really think there was something special to the HL thing. I've ridden many FS bikes (including specialized) and I thought my Turner w/ the HL was the best thing going. When I heard that Turner was going to be dropping the HL I was pretty sure that I wouldn't own another Turner.

Read the Turner forum on MTBR; there's a sticky thread describing peoples testing of the new non HL rear end.

Bottom line, people swapped the HL rear end to a SS pivot rear end on the SAME BIKE and the VAST majority could tell absolutely no difference. No difference. That's about as fair of a test as you're going to get.

My experiences were the same; I could tell absolutely no difference. Not in braking, not in traction etc etc.


Many people preferred the new SS pivot bikes, and a couple of people preferred the old HL bike, but for the rest it was a wash. Clearly any theoretical differences were insignificant enough that other design parameters completely swamped them.

Of course, peoples opinions vary, that's why I suggested riding as many bikes as possible, instead of saying "Oh, it's a SS pivot bike, it must be bad".

Trust me, if I had thought that the SS pivot was inferior in any way to the HL on my XCE I would have ditched the Turner and bought a Titus. Luckly it wasn't.


Oddly enough all of the shorter travel Chumba bikes are FSR design, not SS pivot as you mentioned.

They are butt ugly though :)

Dave

[walsh]

I'm not into bashing one bike or venerating another . . . it's about what makes you want to go out and ride. I've ridden junkers I love, and thoroughbreds that I hated.

That said, are there circles of bike culture where clunky gussets and Frankenstein-looking welds are seen as a positive? Maybe a DH thing??

[urbaindk]

...Frankenstein-looking welds...


What? You don't like peanut butter?

[DaveG]

What? You don't like peanut butter?

Now those were ugly.

[punga]

I'm not trying to be Mr Specialized.....
mike


That's my job :p

BTW, I only have one and have only ever had one Specialized and other than gloves, own no other Specialized products. Just sayin'...

punga!

[redneckp3ngu1n]

Sexy looking frame. Im inlove with the f4 though. On the subject of brake jack my giant stp has a ton of brakejack :rolleyes: :p. I dont mind frames with a bit of brakejack because i am able to work my way around it pretty easily. Getting bounced around while on the brakes? Get of the brakes :D If you have to brake just lay off the rear brake alittle and it will help. Im not saying i wouldnt like a bike like the kona stinky to have a horst link frame but im saying brakejack shouldnt make a frame good or bad. Is a hardtail a bad bike? If you where to base on how it bounces, skips and skidds while on the brakes then yes they are bad. But its not all about that. A frame should be all about its durability, weight and geometry. All the fancy pedaling efficiancy and suspension effectiveness should just be icing on the cake.