looking in from the outside

[vwmtnbiker]

after reading a recent thread on here that caused much debate i felt compelled to share something with the class. throughout the discussion one person was stating opinions contrary to the widely accepted way of thinking on here. several people stated how MORE is for everyone, and so on...and after several people stated that this persons opinion was a fluke and not the norm it occured to me just how many people i know who share the same opinion. that opinion would be that the trails that are built are too easy, the fun stuff is taken out or not even built because noone can ride it and so it doesnt interest anyone on here, and that the group seems to think they "own" the trails. i have heard this from customers of my shop, coworkers and also it seems that the community on ridemonkey shares this view. that more tries to shove their ideas down everyones throat.

heres a link to a thread where just that happened: http://ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149207

now my question to you, the people of more, is this guy the rarity, the proverbial "BAD APPLE", or is this the view and approach that is taken by the majority?

also, perhaps this will help shed some light on the discontent felt by many riders in the area.

i apologize in advance if this causes drama or contraversy, it is not meant to be inflammatory...

cheers

m

[CRAIG2]

I think it was also mentioned at some point that those people who are complaining should spend less time criticizing MORE for what it does and more time getting involved so that they are more involved in the decisions that are made, and gain a better understanding why they are made.

How many of those that frequent your shop, or voiced an opinion in that artical, put in an hour, five hours, 20 hours of organized trail work?

Listen, we all know that you can't please all the people all the time. Take a minute and try to imagine what the mountain biking scene around here would be WITHOUT the resources MORE taps. How many venues have we esablished in 14 years within an hour drive of the beltway?

Craig

[Snot-Rocket]

that more tries to shove their ideas down everyones throat.

Ha, ha- per CRAIGS comments- the consensus of folks had the basic underlying message: VOLUNTEER, get in the decision cycles of what it takes to maintain trail access, sustain existing trails, change existing trails, open new trails, interfacing w/ other user groups, land managers and dealing w/ MTBers in general and more- there are a myriad of issues that can be overwhelming and sucks lotsa time.

If MORE was some County/State/Federally subsidized and/or fully funded program- then folks expectations to crap and get listened to would be valid- granted, MORE is not any of the above...it is just a bunch of good citizens trying to maintain trail access for the MTB Community.

"shove down throught" is a funny expression- so remote from the truth. MORE just pushes messages which are those that keep trail access closed. Per my tour as a liasion- boy, I had some horrendous messages- like don't bomb down into the main trail at accotinks, pass folks courteousily, don't ride off trail, ride single file in large groups on the main cindercone trail. These classes of messages complimented by hey- don't ride on muddy days or at night (cause the Land Manager requested folks not to), don't build illegal trails- wow, after typing some of these messages out, I'm starting to realize how inflammatory they are...I can't tolerate these kind of messages getting "shoved down" my throat... I got principles dontchaknow...ha, ha!

I love this old 17th Century Poem:

"One thinks of you solely
as a [person] who abhors the world
My only hopes are
that your mind be not detained
by this transient lodging."

- Takuan Soho

In short, "Put up or shut up!" ha, ha...

Joy,

[Buddylee]

that opinion would be that the trails that are built are too easy, the fun stuff is taken out or not even built because noone can ride it and so it doesnt interest anyone on here, and that the group seems to think they "own" the trails. i have heard this from customers of my shop, coworkers and also it seems that the community on ridemonkey shares this view. that more tries to shove their ideas down everyones throat.




I always find this interesting. MORE is really TRYING to do whats best and keep access open. I know plenty of MORE riders, mostly ones that are very involved, who can ride with anyone on any kind of terrain. We have, fixed gear riders, rigid SS riders, big hit people, every kind of rider you can imagine on our board of directors. BUT... MORE decisions are very dictated by the parks on which we are trying to keep mountain biking open. Some people spend hundreds of hours a year just communicating with Parks and Rec in our area, this is more work than anyone can imagine, until you do it. I also know there have been talks of getting some good 'Freeride' people involved so we can start to work toward having a real, legal, safe place for 'freeriders'.

Speaking for some i think... XC riders have to travel to get to more difficult terrain. We go to Gambril, out west to the mountains of VA, hell, some of people even take trips out west to Frutia to get in some "real" riding.

I know i've ridden in plenty of places where there are plenty of natural stunts, drops, technical terrain that even the most experienced rider can call difficult. Just know where to look and be willing to travel around a little to find it.

You can't just build things in a public park, expect that the park will just go, oh well, no big deal, there is a stunt over there that 90% of our visitors probably should not ride. The parks have to do whats best for everyone... and mountain biking as a community is growing yes, but a very small part of the overall park using community. so until you get a united voice for some real freeriding in every place, then you we will continue to have this same argument. And until some people stop putting down the "XC" rider as someone who "can't" ride, the "freerider" will get no respect either.

I understand your position as a bike shop owner? Its tough, you get lots of customers with lots of opinions. I ask of you to explain that MORE is doing a lot behind the scenes and as a person in the industry, ask to talk to some people involved at the top of MORE so you can understand what is being asked of MORE from the authorities as well as more about what MORE is doing so you can better educate your customers who are complaining the most and maybe in this vast world of people, someone will have the magic answer to getting access for every type of rider in every park in every area.

[MyOtherBrotherL]

Speaking of "Ride Monkey" - I found this last night.

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2068943#post206894 3

I'm not putting this out to cause trouble but to point out that there appears to be discontent within your own community (OK - The communities overlap, but I didn't know how to word the sentence). Attacks and flame wars seem to be the norm when folks don't get their way or have divergent opinions with others.

It has been pointed out many times that MORE is just a group of volunteers. Within that group there are a precious few that take the time to follow projects from beginning to end. Looking purely at my selfish self, I know that there are a few things about the Wakefield trail design that purely reflect what "I" wanted. Certain trail design techniques take more work to maintain than others and "I" helped influence a design that would minimize the amount of work needed to maintain such a highly used trail system.

Were all users happy? - NO

Are they vocal about their unhappiness? - YES

Will they ever stop being vocal about their unhappiness? - Eventually, but 20 years is a long time to wait.

Were the majority of the users happy with the redesign or at least satisfied with the compromise of the redesign? (Remember - Over half of the wooded portion of the property was going to be lost to biking because of the historical references and environmental concerns) - YES

Do we (MORE, PVC and the Park) still get letters and E-Mails complementing them on the redesign? - YES (I got one forwarded to me just the other day)

Am I happy? - YES (For the most part - Phase II maintenance is going to be the death of me)

L

[drewdane]

I think it was also mentioned at some point that those people who are complaining should spend less time criticizing MORE for what it does and more time getting involved so that they are more involved in the decisions that are made, and gain a better understanding why they are made.

Craig
Furthermore, I noticed that the person who instigated the discussion in that "other" thread seemed more interested in playing the aggrieved victim than in actually reading and taking to heart the multiple replies s/he received specifically addressing the points raised. It's hard for me to have a lot of patience or sympathy for people who continue to whine and troll after their points have been addressed.

[CRAIG2]

Ditto. Like I said earlier, Helmet Optional was a known troller who had visited this forum previously.

Constructive debate was not his/her intent, as became apparent.

[kuru]

now my question to you, the people of more, is this guy the rarity, the proverbial "BAD APPLE", or is this the view and approach that is taken by the majority?


I imagine that, from the perspective of the park service, the “Bad Apples” are the ones who build trails on park land without permission.

If you want trails of a certain type to be built, it is best to work with the park authorities rather than behind their backs. If people keep building unauthorized trails, the park managers could get frustrated enough to close the park trails to bikes altogether. Nasty emails and protests (as that one clown suggested - to protest our “right” to build illegal/unauthorized trails) are only going to lead to an antagonistic relationship with park managers. That will not help anyone except the hikers and equestrians.

MORE has an established relationship with the people at Patapsco and could offer you a foot in the door to get the trails you want. If you do not like MORE, organize yourselves and work WITH the park.

[tsteele999]

Were the majority of the users happy with the redesign or at least satisfied with the compromise of the redesign? (Remember - Over half of the wooded portion of the property was going to be lost to biking because of the historical references and environmental concerns) - YES
L

Larry-

I appreciate and know first hand all the work that went into the Phase 1 and 2 trails, but (and it's a big but) I have heard (also- haven't seen them in practice) that there is a big problem with re-opening closed trails in the woods. When the threat is made that all trails will be lost if we don't follow the rec depts line, remember that there is a whole contingent of people who wouldn't seem to mind riding there anyways. The whole 495 jumps deal was under their noses and they didn't eliminate them, and now they're embracing them.

[BikerMiker]

As I have said many times, MORE is what the members and volunteers make it. If you are not involved, you will not be heard.

A forum is not 'input' it's just typing. Volunteering, realizing what is possible, working through compromise are the adult and responsible realities of working on public land.

In our shops, we tout MORE as the solution, not the problem. There are people out there ensuring that you are busy. Also, they ensure that there is trail to complain about.

People never like to hear that democracy requires effort: they want things to just happen their way without really getting involved. Sorry, that's how the world works.

mike

[gaz]

First up, I have to say this - when people do criticize MORE, many folks on here (myself included) take it personally, and we get defensive. When the person doing the criticizing (and often times, criticism is constructive, even though it's sometimes not fun to take) is doing it in a somewhat abusive/flamer way, then it makes it less likely for them to be taken seriously, and they'll be shouted down by the masses. It becomes a shouting competition, and the person with the loudest voice (the majority!) usually wins.

Anyways, to your point. That post was exactly the same as a dozen I've read here, there, and also on MTBR. It's essentially one or two guys (and they're likely the same guy, all the time) who start out by saying that MORE, IMBA, the DNR and whoever are the man, that freeriders are rebels, and that they need to unite and fight the power.

I find the constant labelling of MORE as a bunch of XC elitists who don't care about FR/DH/DJ to be asinine - ask Corey from DC Street if that statement is true. No wait, someone did!!on the contrary, without scott scudamore (MORE) & rich edwards (IMBA), 495 would have been plowed by the county a year ago.

i think getting 495 legitimized will hopefully go a long way towards changing the way people think about MORE around here. they've been great to work with so far. You can't make every person happy, every time. MORE is, admittedly, a group made up of a predominant demographic, and the work has been done to cater to that demographic. That's not being elitist though - that's because that's what the people wanted. Freerider's didn't speak up, or if they did they didn't do it loud enough. That's changing - and that's a great thing. I've said it before, I'll say it again - I don't do freeride. I don't do jumps. My drops are measured in feet, not inches. But that's not to say I don't respect what freeriders do - they kick arse, and I respect the hell out of them for pulling off stuff that I don't have the cojones to consider, and I strongly believe that FR and extremely technical riding does need a home in the area.

But a certain section of freeriders, great riders though they may be, are being idiots. Their illegal trails are getting dozed, and their response is to whine about it on message boards, throw mud at one of the few organizations with the clout and willingness to help, and then go build another pirate trail. Which will last a while... maybe a month, maybe a year, before the land managers find it, and the cycle repeats.

These kids need to get organized. Get together, and go legit. MORE offered them a voice, and they're not taking it up. There's a freeride section of these boards that was put in to give them a place within the MORE community, a place to air what they want, and for folks who are established at lobbying and trail building to offer solutions and answers, but it's dormant. As long as the "us versus them" mentality remains, the only thing that's ever going to come of this is the occasional flame thread like the ones mentioned...

[urbaindk]

Furthermore, I noticed that the person who instigated the discussion in that "other" thread seemed more interested in playing the aggrieved victim than in actually reading and taking to heart the multiple replies s/he received specifically addressing the points raised. It's hard for me to have a lot of patience or sympathy for people who continue to whine and troll after their points have been addressed.


I hope you're not referring to me (jdschall on RM). I think I at least try to maintain some level of civility and listen to what others have to say when making my arguments, even if I get a little mad at first.

I think posting on both sides of the fence (RM and here) has actually helped me understand a little more about MORE's objectives, #1 being to keep existing trails open. And I think I've actually sort of changed my opinions on this whole "shove down the throat" thing that vtmtb mentions. I've made it my goal to understand where both sides are coming from and maybe just maybe work towards bridging that gap.

I do think that the freeride issue has been ignored for too long. I think that everybody can see that it is not just a passing fad (at least until my 2nd or 3rd knee surgery). I think that maybe it caught MORE napping. But that is all in the past and as everybody has said - the only way forward is to get involved.

I've tried to get some of the RM people to post in the freeride forum here with little or no success. Mistrust runs deep (and one or two people just like to see their words in print on the internet). The thread I initially posted on RM regarding More's freeride turned into a pissing match over trail access and publicity of 'the shed' and some trails that were closed. The original thread was deleted and after more of this kind of crap the entire forum has been closed. Before the forum was closed a second thread appeared here:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148434

This maybe a more representative thread than the one posted above.

[urbaindk]

Nasty emails and protests (as that one clown suggested - to protest our “right” to build illegal/unauthorized trails) k.


Thank you for calling me a clown.

I never said to send nasty emails. I only posted an address and phone number to which people could express their displeasure at the removal of this trail. I posted the same information on the board here. People have been doing letter writing campaigns for years (since the invention of paper I assume), I saw no issue with posting the address.

However I was latter informed by riderx on this board about the tenuous nature of mtbing on trails at Patapsco and decided it wasn't really a good idea but I didn't see the need to edit my original post.

[MyOtherBrotherL]

Larry-

I appreciate and know first hand all the work that went into the Phase 1 and 2 trails, but (and it's a big but) I have heard (also- haven't seen them in practice) that there is a big problem with re-opening closed trails in the woods. When the threat is made that all trails will be lost if we don't follow the rec depts line, remember that there is a whole contingent of people who wouldn't seem to mind riding there anyways. The whole 495 jumps deal was under their noses and they didn't eliminate them, and now they're embracing them.

Ah - Grasshopper - You are confused.

Prior to 2005 (Or there about), the 495 TTF's resided on VA STATE property. FCPA couldn't have cared less what went on there. The CCT and the Little River interchange underpass changed all of that. Once the State agreed to give that property to FCPA (And Give is a generous term), the TTF's became the ward of the Park System. Literally the same bulldozers that were building the creek bridges were prepared to mow down the jumps. There was even talk of making that area into an extension of the race course. That's when Rich Edwards, Dan Hudson and several others said "NO".

FYI - A lot of work went into making sure that the 495 TTF's remained. Adam and others have agreed to do everything from trash collecting to practically being lifeguards. In the end, IMHO, I think one of the primary reasons the trails are staying is because of precedent. The 495 trails have been there for MANY years and can be shown in videos that are over 10 years old. And just between me and you, the first time somebody gets seriously hurt out there my bet will be on the bulldozer.

As for the reopening of closed trails - Your right. And the Park Naturalist sure as heck brought that up at the 495 meeting the other day. We played it off as a few bad apples in a large user group.

Remember - Several Hundred riders use Wakefield every week. Several hundred more use the surrounding trails and woods for approved activities other than biking. If it's a group of 10 or 20 rebels reopening trails (And I doubt it's that high), then the percentage is still low. As for rogue riders. There is currently plans to develop penalties for offending Park users. I have recommended a $1000 fine, confiscation of Bike and tools and a 1 year ban from all FCPA facilities and properties. Once your banned from the Parks, trespassing becomes a real crime and not just a slap on the wrist.

Anyway - The lawyers need to decide on that last piece.

L

[gaz]

Thank you for calling me a clown. I think that the only clown on that thread was hot butter whatever. All others, despite varying degrees of aggrievance, were pretty civil, and were at least wise to the fact that whining about something on an internet message board, generally doesn't solve a problem. The only way to do it is get involved. Dave, you seem like a good guy, I worked with you out at Rosaryville a couple weeks ago, I think, and you're working. I think you should have a chat with Scud, and take the bull by the horns - become a MORE liaison, and advocate FR and DJ in the area!

[urbaindk]

Dave, you seem like a good guy, I worked with you out at Rosaryville a couple weeks ago, I think, and you're working. I think you should have a chat with Scud, and take the bull by the horns - become a MORE liaison, and advocate FR and DJ in the area!


Yeah that was me. I'm a little hesitant to step into any sort of official role at this point. I'm a post-doc and I've been interviewing for permanent positions outside the area. At this point I'm not sure if I'll be here for another full year. I originally volunteered to work with David at R-ville. Hopefully I'll be able to keep up that connection for awhile. I'm sure any little bit helps.

[IFBikeMD]

I'm sure any little bit helps.

Calm and rational heads participating in the club provide the broader perspective and sweat equity we need. I'm regularly puzzled by the heat that the club takes for not representing well certain segments of the sport. Real breakthroughs in our area trail systems come from getting a diverse group of dedicated individuals on the ground working with all the parties. Hanging out on-line or with our buddies and throwing stones at MORE will never get diverse views implemented. It is those volunteers working the dirt with the land managers that win over time (often years). I'd like to see the energy of these cyberspace arguments channeled into real action.

It is no secret that the knowledge and expertise in the club leans towards XC. In my experience, it is what most of us know and love first and foremost. We do admire and enjoy trying other types of riding. This doesn't make us experts in them. How can MORE be expected to represent views of people who do not choose to join? Guess this is the chicken or the egg question.

Yes, every little bit helps.

[kuru]

Thank you for calling me a clown.


OK, maybe that was not necessary. Sorry.

From ridemonkey: "I can't find a email address to which I can send a bitchy email but here is the phone number and address..."

There were a couple of hot-headed people on that thread who should not be encouraged to write letters on their own behalf, let alone on the behalf of others.

[Dirt]

I've been out of town for a few weeks, so I've missed a lot of the discussions. Pardon me for posting before I get around to catching up on my reading.

I do think that the freeride issue has been ignored for too long. I think that everybody can see that it is not just a passing fad (at least until my 2nd or 3rd knee surgery). I think that maybe it caught MORE napping. But that is all in the past and as everybody has said - the only way forward is to get involved.

I honestly don't think that MORE is the group that was cought napping when it comes to freeride trails. Freeriders are going through the same growing pains that mountain bikers in general went through in the early 1990s when most of the trails in this area were closed to mountain bikes.

Back then MORE became the solution to the problem of closing trails.

At this point the Freeride community is beginning to see the problems that are out there. As has been said, MORE is a good resource for riders of all kinds to have their voices heard and to get trails built. You're right that I think that is water under the bridge and that if people want trials built to suit their taste and riding needs, they need to get involved with their voices, political action and their sweat. That's how MORE gets everything done. (Dirt Rag #120 has a great interview with Dave Scull about what it takes to get ANYTHING done in this area. I strongly suggest reading it).

Again, I haven't had time to read everything out here yet. Pardon my ignorance if some of this has been covered.

On the freeride forum, many offers were made to get input from freeriders in order to build trails that suit them. What follows are questions that I'm asking... They're not intended to be statements:

Has anyone contacted Barbara (squirrel girl) about building TTFs at Conway? She offered to include freeride folks in future trail planning.

Has anyone contacted Larry about his offer to build something a bit more interesting for freeriders to ride at Wakefield? I seem to remember him offering up some of the rock they've got and some planning if people would work to move it and help build.

I know folks have seen the TTFs at Patapsco and Schaeffer. They're simple, but they're a start.

I'm a photographer. I love freeriders because they're a blast to photograph. I wish we had more getting involved because it would be damn cool to get some fun stuff built legally so I could photograph people riding it.

I also send out a big thank you to all who have contributed to this thread.

PEte

[drewdane]

I hope you're not referring to me (jdschall on RM).
No. I was referring to the "Bad Apples" thread here on the MORE boards.

[urbaindk]

OK, maybe that was not necessary. Sorry.

From ridemonkey: "I can't find a email address to which I can send a bitchy email but here is the phone number and address..."

There were a couple of hot-headed people on that thread who should not be encouraged to write letters on their own behalf, let alone on the behalf of others.


Yes, in reading what followed, I'd have to agree that maybe that wasn't the best idea.

[urbaindk]

I honestly don't think that MORE is the group that was cought napping when it comes to freeride trails. Freeriders are going through the same growing pains that mountain bikers in general went through in the early 1990s when most of the trails in this area were closed to mountain bikes.

Back then MORE became the solution to the problem of closing trails.

At this point the Freeride community is beginning to see the problems that are out there.


You make a really good point here. One I failed to notice on my own. Freeriding, just like the rise regular old mtbing in the 80's / early 90's sort of started out with an underground / cult following, but its popularity has grown to the point where it has become too large to go unnoticed. The parallels are pretty clear if you have enough perspective to see it.

Using the old "those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it" adage I guess you could just as easily blame freeriders for napping eh?

[jks9199]

You can't just build things in a public park, expect that the park will just go, oh well, no big deal, there is a stunt over there that 90% of our visitors probably should not ride. The parks have to do whats best for everyone... and mountain biking as a community is growing yes, but a very small part of the overall park using community. so until you get a united voice for some real freeriding in every place, then you we will continue to have this same argument. And until some people stop putting down the "XC" rider as someone who "can't" ride, the "freerider" will get no respect either.




Property owners also have to consider liability; if it's built there, they can be liable for it. And there are concerns for trail advocacy organizations, too. I just read about a bike club similar to MORE somewhere out west that's having to defend itself after being named in a lawsuit after someone got hurt. Add to that the simple necessity that most of the trails in the immediate area are going to be multi-use trails for hikers, bikers, and horse riders and you will find that some stunts and trail features are just not likely to be built. Bypasses and go-arounds just aren't always practical, and horses or hikers can't always negotiate something that we might on a bike.

There's no magic answer. But participation, both in trailwork and in advocacy, gives you a better chance of getting what you want than simply talking about it, and complaining about the actions of advocacy organizations. And it doesn't end up denying access like just going off and doing your own thing on someone else's land will.

[Dirt]

Using the old "those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it" adage I guess you could just as easily blame freeriders for napping eh?

Dude, I nap my way through life. I'd rather not point my fingers at anyone. I'd rather just get people involved and start working on the solution. I don't have a lot of time nor the back for doing a lot of physical labor on trail days. I'll still be out there to help when I can.

I'm psyched to get out there and do some building.

Pete

[BikerMiker]

And don't forget that the percentage of freeride/dj/dh riders in the mtn bike community is still pretty small.

You can look at it as a percentage of local bike shop sales or total number of riders in local events, total number of events, number of members in MORE who say they 'mostly' ride fr/dj/dh type stuff... pretty much any way you look at it, it's probably less than 10% of the total number of riders out there.

The vast majority of people who ride mtn bikes (fat tires, on dirt) are 'xc' type of riders. If you ask your local shop how many 4-5" travel bikes they've sold in the last year, it's probably 10 times the number of 6-8" travel bikes.

And by the way, we have stalled the destruction of the drop/jump trail (Lewis and Clarke) at Patapsco. We have a meeting in about two weeks to look at keeping it. And that is all thanks to MORE people with contacts at MD DNR. I've only had a little to do with it, but I've been beating the drum.

My position is that we should sacrifice that little section for something bigger in the middle of the park, close to the main entrance and easier for ambulatory evacuation (and easier to charge people to enter the park).

This brings up an interesting dynamic that might contribute to this discussion: I don't have to consult the MORE board when I make a recommendation like this to Patapsco on MORE's behalf. It would be hard for it to work any other way, but you have to understand that us liaisons have a lot of leeway when it comes to what goes on in the parks.

All the more reason to get involved...

mike
fightin' like hell to just ride more

[vwmtnbiker]

i see the point has been missed. forget about the bull thats going on on the monkey...thats silly kids making racist, inflammatory, unrelated comments that got the forum stopped. i was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach. it pisses people off. and while you might be frustrated that they cant see things your way...they have no reason to. some are content to have to move and rebuild their trails every six months because they get torn down. they can still ride what they want and build what they want. if nothing else this poses a problem for YOU guys because it will jepordize access to areas YOU (MORE) have helped to gain, and sustain.

i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?

sorry for not posting in my own thread for days, i've been away from the computer.

cheers

m

[gaz]

was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach. it pisses people off.My thought on that? Honestly? Tough luck, sucks for them, welcome to real life.

Some years ago, folks wanted trails to ride on. Those folks got together, did the gruntwork, did the legwork, and did the paperwork to make that happen. Thanks to those efforts, we now have the trail network we have.

Now folks want FR trails to ride on. They don't want to get together, do the gruntwork, do the legwork, or the paperwork to make it happen. So guess what's gonna come of that?

News at 11 for ANYONE reading this, be you a weight-weenie elitist XCer, or a 14 year old freerider with a bad attitude on a fat rig. You get out what you put in - not just trails, not just riding, with EVERYTHING.

[gaz]

but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?Ooh, one quick caveat to that, sorry. FWIW, MORE isn't the ones saying "it's our way or the highway", it's the DNR and park people. There's due process and hoops to be jumped through, just like every other piece of beurocratic cr*p that government makes us do. I think what MORE does say is "look guys, we've been through this, we know what works, we know what doesn't."

[halfinch]

i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?


first- i've got no particular beef with you.

it's my opinion that MORE doesnt exclude any segment of the biking population. as stated by others, there isnt a large contingency of folks who "freeride" and the folks who maintain the trails do it in an effort to 1) keep them open and 2) persue the creation of additional trails. these trails may not be technical enough for everyone out there, but it beats riding on pavement.

as for recruiting - how do you go about doing this? does someone post on RM asking for riders to please join in the fun, we'll build user specific trails if you, the freerider, do join? on the hopes that illegal trails wont be constructed and close access to established trails in the future?

as previously, it takes folks who want to be part of the solution. it's too effing easy to quibble, rant, and piss then do the work.

[phuncadelic]

i see the point has been missed. forget about the bull thats going on on the monkey...thats silly kids making racist, inflammatory, unrelated comments that got the forum stopped. i was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach. it pisses people off. and while you might be frustrated that they cant see things your way...they have no reason to.

It is not about manning up to build trails building trails is the "easy" part its all about manning up to meet with people, organize, talk ideas through get permission and cooperation.

Kind of like the night riding at Wakefield. MORE VOLUNTEERS worked it out with the park so everyone was agreeing.

[bunky]

VW,

I know that as much as you are in the battle alone, there are a lot of DH/FR people who follow this board, so this is addressed to you as well as the DH/FR community that builds trails and stunts w/o permission.

When I first read what you wrote, I wrote a draft response that was full of anger and adopted a kind of “the law is the law” type of approach. Then I took a deep breath and reflected upon what I was saying to see if I really believe that. And I don’t--- because there are a lot of rules I think are completely BS, in mountain biking as well as other situations in society. Ultimately, however, I think it isn’t so much a matter of what the law/rules are, but the consequences for everyone if we all just indulge in what makes us personally happy, as opposed of thinking about everybody’s long term interests.

Allow me to provide a couple of situations which I think illustrate my point.

A few years back, my car broke down and I had no way of getting out of DC to ride. I was riding along in Rock Creek Park in February and it was a beautiful day—sunny and warm. I was obeying the law by riding on a paved surface, thinking, man some of this singletrack would be great to ride, but “do the right thing” or bad karma. It was at this exact moment that I saw some patrician looking lady in complete fox-hunting outfit ride a half-ton Arabian horse directly up a fall line trail chucking baby-sized clods of dirt about 20 feet backwards with every step. I almost crapped my pants at the irony. Who was responsible for this double standard? I could only conclude it was The Man, who would much prefer to have monied, congressional types on horseback on these trails than dread-headed rasta bike messengers in between deliveries enjoying these trails right in the heart of DC.

So I decided, what the hell, I’ll poach these trails. And I did. And wouldn’t you know-- they were great trails. But almost as soon as I did, I started running into joggers and hikers who, as seems to be the custom in DC, started screaming at me that I couldn’t be where I was. And I wasn’t in some really congested area—this was up in the MD section north of Military Rd. Who were these people, and why were they making me feel bad for no good reason other than a little brown sign with a white bike and a red circle and line. Clearly, they were relying simply on the “the law is the law” attitude. This was unreasonable. Nevertheless, I got tired of people yelling and screaming and realized that, apart from the fact that I really wasn’t bothering anybody, these people were crazy about me being on my bike. So eventually I stopped riding there—I felt bad, because I really liked not having to use a car to ride offroad, but I felt like a criminal and always thought—what am I going tell Mr. Charlie when he eventually catches up with me? So I quit and started riding out of town.

Now fast forward to 2003. I started doing the night rides at Wakefield Accotink. I really loved riding Wakefield and Accotink at night. Then, somehow, word got back to Accotink that MORE was leading nightrides into Accotink. They adopted a bright-line rule that night-riding would not be tolerated. They relied upon reasoning that Accotink is, unlike Wakefield an “interpretive park” wherein protecting charismatic fauna is of the utmost importance and having a bunch of bikers in there with lights will disturb them. Now, I find it hard to believe that Accotink has so much wildlife in that densely populated neighborhood, that having a few riders in there at night would pose that big of a problem. Add to this the fact that the Park advertises and conducts night hikes on two consecutive nights each month (in which until very recently participants were encouraged to bring along flashlights). It seems like if you were really concerned about the animals, you wouldn’t invite the public to go shine lights in their eyes on two consecutive nights per month. But alas, the law is the law.

And it is based on this reasoning that I daydream about poaching Accotink at night about 100 times a day and feel the ban on night-riding there is some of the biggest BS I have ever heard. And I imagine that’s how you feel about your trails and stunts.

But I don’t poach it. Why? Because poaching Accotink will eventually get it closed for everybody—day or night. And then I think about the people who live down the street not having the ability to ride there at all—having to look at all that singletrack and either not ride it and feel bad or ride it illegally and feel bad. Would they feel the same way I felt at Rock Creek Park? Probably.

It is against thoughts like these that I realize it isn’t about what I want to do to make me happy, but thinking about everybody’s happiness. With that in mind, I think you push as hard as you can within the system to see what you can work out with the land managers. And I think that is what MORE is selling.

So, I am not going to condemn your activities, but simply invite you to be a part of the process. I know you feel the status quo is BS—and I agree its sucks when arbitrary rules get in the way of our fun, but let’s think about the long term consequences for all.

Thanks,

Bunky

[punga]

i was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach. it pisses people off. and while you might be frustrated that they cant see things your way...they have no reason to. some are content to have to move and rebuild their trails every six months because they get torn down. they can still ride what they want and build what they want. if nothing else this poses a problem for YOU guys because it will jepordize access to areas YOU (MORE) have helped to gain, and sustain.

i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?

cheers

m

I guess I'm confused by what you're asking of MORE, let me see if I have this right:

You feel that MORE should somehow drag freeriders out to meetings (that you admit they're not interested in doing) with land managers so we can build things to suit their needs? You feel that MORE should do more to invite the FR/DH community by somehow magically divining the type of trails and features they want? And that MORE should be responsible for building features for people who don't want to be involved and can't be ridden by a majority of those being asked to build the features? I think you're asking a lot of a volunteer organization.

Mike's comments about get out, man up and help out weren't meant to be a challenge or a "my way or the highway" declaration. They're statements of fact. The current trails that MORE works on didn't get that way because we sat around and sniped at people via internet forums. People got out and busted their asses, both in time and sweat equity. Excuse me if I sound a little peeved, but I think MORE has tried to welcome the FR community as much as possible.

What exactly do you propose? This isn't a tough love approach, it's just the reality based community pointing out that the only way things have gotten done is by actually doing them. If you have a better solution to reach out to the freeriders out there, I'm sure that everyone in MORE is all ears. But don't expect us to coddle them anymore than anyone else. If they want to go on building illegal trails, that's their prerogative, but they should understand that by doing so, they risk ruining it for everyone.

Just one man's observation....

punga!

[Dirt]

Oy oy. I'm going to appologize for this post ahead of time. Who knows where my brain is going. Don't take any of this as me being upset or mad about stuff. I'm just letting the words flow off the fingers. It is often hard to tell a person's tone when you're typing. None of what I'm saying is meant to be anything more than an encouragement to bring ideas out or get involved. Cool?

i was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach. it pisses people off.

Sorry dude. Love is tough. You gotta pay to play. There are a lot of folks that work their asses off to keep trials open and get opportunities to build new trails. If there are freeriders out there that are concerned about having a great, legal place to ride, they are ALWAYS welcome to help us develop some perminant trails that will meet their needs. MORE is a great place to do this. We've got the ground work laid for REALLY GOOD TRAIL ADVOCACY AND BUILDING!!!

i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?

I'll recruit you right now. Show up, help with trail advocacy, help build trails and you can have the opportunity to get a great trails that are legal, challenging and kick-ass. I think there is a large group within MORE right now that wholehearted support that kind of thing. That's why there are the beginnings of some cool TTFs at Patapsco, Schaeffer and Rosaryville. Come help us complete those and build more. There! You've been recruited. Now you go out and to that to the people you ride with.

What more would you like? People come in, complain that we're not freeride friendly and that we're closed minded. We kick the door open and invite them to do something about it and get zero response. There are TTFs installed at Schaeffer, Patapsco and Rosaryville. Were those lobbied for and built because the majority of MORE are XC weiners that like that sort of thing? (Actually I'm one weiner that does love that sort of thing and I ride with a crew that generally enjoys it too).

I've offered to lead rides at Buzzard Rocks (http://myroadtrips.peterbeers.net/mbrt/Buzzard_Rocks_11-29-2004/Buzzard_Rocks.htm)... an area that has some TTF's made by Mother Nature that are a blast to ride. I can't ride 1/2 of it, but I love going up there. I'd be completely stoked to snap photos of some great riders schooling me on that kind of terrain. The only interest I've had in that is from Grumpy J who's said on a few occasions "We gotta go back there sometime."

There are some AWESOME Rides like that that are totally legal, completely challenging and built by nature that are available to you right now. People around here will be happy to get you to the trails and even go with you. All you gotta do is ask... and ride/hike to the top. I'll even put gears on my bike again so I can go with you.

I honestly don't know how to make it easier for folks. If you've got suggestions, then pipe up! Don't just come in here and tell us that we're pissing you (and others) off. Complaints without a hint of solution don't do us or anyone else any good. It just perpetuates the idea that freeriders are "silly kids making racist, inflammatory, unrelated comments that got the forum stopped" (your words, not mine and I KNOW that was not intended to describe the freeride community or even a fraction of it. I'm just showing you that going by stereotypes goes both ways). :) Bring us an idea or two that we can do to stop the perception that MORE is a bunch of weiners that hate freeriding and freeriders are somehow discouraged from being part of the club. Do that and you'll go a LONG way to showing everyone that freeriders give a crap about having a perminant, legal, technical, awesome place to ride.

I know that's kind of a tough love post and I've probably just validated your complaint. Oh well! Tell us what we can do. We can't do it all for you.

Pete

[gaz]

blah blah blah blah...ARGH!!! (Frantically clicking) Can't... give... Peter.... any.... more.... greenies.... Must.... spread.... love.... around....!

[drewdane]

Must.... spread.... love.... around....!
Eeeeewwwww!!!!

Oh yeah - What Peter, and Hophead, and yes, Bald Gaz said!

[BikerMiker]

We love riding. We love all types of riding. Look how positive this whole thread has been. You think that would happen if people started criticising anyone on Ridemonkey? I'm not trying to start and 'us' against 'them' thing because 'us' is 'them,' or 'we' is 'us' or something.

I freeride. I don't do 10' drops (yet) but I love skinnies and log rides and jumps and 4'ers. I have been working to save illegal stuff at Patapsco. I am part of MORE therefore MORE is FOR FREERIDERS and freeriding. Hell, it used to be called mountain biking.

This year, I'm racing DH, singlespeed, 12hr races, 24hr races, xc stuff, road, commuting, fixed gear and taking the kids in the trailer. Let's back away from labels and work togethers. We are all mountain bikers and we all ride dirt and we all want to have more fun.

MORE can do this, but, as has been said before, we can't just magically know who wants what where. We need help to figure this stuff out, that's what it really comes down to. That's why everyone here is so stoked at the possibility that more FR-specific mtn bikers will get involved with MORE.

It's a democracy: you get what you give. It's like life. It's just more fun.

mike
havin' fun

[soreback]

ok, blast away at me MORE, but as sorta a third party observer ( i read both MORE and RideMonkey) and a full member of neither... yes vwmtnbiker, i agree with you that the point has been missed. the reason why it was missed is what prompted your response to begin with, and its like that quote out of that bruce willis movie, "i see dead people"... they arent gonna see it (and i dont mean the freeerider issue, i mean WHY they dont see it). youd have better luck trying to go to a PETA convention and trying to get them to go and get a meal at KFC. vwmtnbiker, you are sitting in the bleachers of the opposing team, playing at home. son, just what are you thinking, lol...

i am not a freerider, heck, im probably not at the level of even the most inexperienced biker on here. im just an old fat guy trying to lose weight by biking and am strickly a 2-3 times a week recreational rider at burke lake park. and my comments are not in support of freeriders wanting this or that and not doing anything for it, or building illegal stuff, etc etc... it (my comments) goes to the organizational climate here, which is why i havent become a paid member here yet (no loss to you guys on that tho).

ohhh boy... is my one solitary green dot gonna turn red now!!??


i see the point has been missed. i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?
m

[IFBikeMD]

OK, I have absolutely no idea what SoreBack is attempting to say. Guess we should move on to watch the dead or eat chicken... or perhaps ride.

[Dirt]

vwmtnbiker, i agree with you that the point has been missed.

This is getting frustrating. :D

If I'm so dense that I'm missing the point, instead of telling me that I'm missing the point, why don't you TELL ME WHAT THAT POINT IS???

I've had 5 concussions in the last 10 years so any explanation will have to use very small words. Tell us what you want and we'll do what we can.

Until then, we're going to keep doing trail advocacy for all riders, build some cool TTFs in places where we can, lead rides in places where there is AWESOME technical riding for ALL ABILITY levels and invite anyone on those rides that wants to attend.

vwmtnbiker suggested that we go out and recruit freeriders. I turn that around to you or anyone else. How do we recruit freeriders? I guess I can go over to Ride Monkey and start reading. That would be a first step.

What's next? Teach me the secret handshake!!!

Hugs and Kisses,

Pete

[CRAIG2]

[QUOTE=SoreBack]
... it (my comments) goes to the organizational climate here, which is why i havent become a paid member here yet (no loss to you guys on that tho).

QUOTE]


ok, so what kind of organizational climate would you prefer? I'm with Pete - try offering a few constructive suggestions. We're likely to pay more attention that way. Stop telling us what we're not doing, and more of what you think we could be doing. Appreciate the volunteer efforts that have provided for 26 (yep, that's TWENTY-SIX) legal venues to ride within an hour or so of the beltway. What if our 500+ members just stopped volunteering?

Quit whining. Get involved. Get INVOLVED. Be part of the SOLUTION.

[phuncadelic]

OK, I have absolutely no idea what SoreBack is attempting to say. Guess we should move on to watch the dead or eat chicken... or perhaps ride.

you have it all wrong its:

Eat the dead and watch the chickens ride!

I think I missed it to!

[drewdane]

you have it all wrong its:

Eat the dead and watch the chickens ride!

I think I missed it to!
No, no, no! It's watch the dead eat chicken!

Wait, no - it's ride the chickens and watch them die.

Oops, no, it's die while chickens watch you ride.

Waitaminnit, that's not right - hold on. I KNOW! It's... No, that's not right either. Where'd I put those notes?

Hmmm...

[Dirt]

Quit whining. Get involved. Get INVOLVED. Be part of the SOLUTION.

I didn't mean my post to sound so much like that. Sorry if it was taken that way. Craig is a big boy and obviously speaks for himself. I'd like to not have this get confrontational. Green dots should not appear or dissappear because of what we're talking about here. I'd just like some clarity.

I do share one sentiment that Craig expressed. I'd honestly love to know what it is about MORE's organization that is turning you off.

In all my years of involvement with MORE, I've never had the time to take up the torch and do more than lead rides, do some trail work and pay my dues. I've never served on the board.

The friends that I've got who DO serve are people who's committment I admire because I see the endless hours that they devote not only to the club, but to ALL TRAIL USERS!

Lets work to keep this a good conversation. I don't mean this to be confrontational.

I'd love to hear what people have to say and I'd REALLY love it if that something had either suggestions for how to make MORE something that you do think is worthy of your $20/year or a clear statement of what it is about MORE that you don't like.

Thanks to all for posting the comments that you have.... Except Craig. ;) Lets keep it civil.

Pete

[Dirt]

No, no, no! It's watch the dead eat chicken!

DAMMIT! now you made me hungry. I'm out surfing Ride Monkey when I should be out getting lunch.

My ride home and Wakefield ride tonight are going to SUCK!!!!

HHmmmmmm Chicken HMMMmmmm *DROOOOOOOOOOOOL*

Pete

PS: Sorry for this post. I'd written three serious posts in a row and needed to get that out of my system.

[Dirt]

I was wondering what vwmtnbiker was talking about in his second comment in reference to Ride Monkey.

Here's the post on the VA area forum:

Virginia Forum is CLOSED for one month

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After countless warnings, and reminders, I'm still seeing the same crap in here, flame wars, attacks on SK6, and much more. This forum has become the biggest pain in the ass of all the forums I've ever dealt with so I'm closing it for a month to see if I can get the message across.

Come back May 20th...or don't...many of you will not be missed.

I know that's the work of a few and not reflective of the whole group of folks. I was just curious what he was talking about.

PEte

[urbaindk]

I'd love to hear what people have to say and I'd REALLY love it if that something had either suggestions for how to make MORE something that you do think is worthy of your $20/year or a clear statement of what it is about MORE that you don't like.


i was pointing out the 'tough love' approach, put up or shut up, man up, cowboy up, if you dont show up and dig with us we dont care what you want to ride...approach.

i believe in the concept, goals, and idea of MORE. i hate the approach though. you guys need to recruit these guys. get them on your side and things will be great. but the our way or the highway approach just makes people say well screw that. make sense?



How can I say this with out ruffling any(MORE) feathers, dead chicken or otherwise?

I think the point vwmtber is trying to articulate is that some of the some of the posts on RM by MORE members like Citybikesmike came across as very confrontational and challenging. I don't believe that was his intention at all but that was the effect. I know that when ever I am challenged or confronted I tend to put up my guard and come back from a defensive stance.

I grew up in the South and am a little more used to Southern style charm and hospitality. In general people in this area just come across as mean and grumpy. I'm sure they aren't really mean angry people really. It's just a perception on my part and I'm try to learn to deal with it and not be so offended by it.

Where am I going with this? Political Savvy... A little ass kissing and subtle manipulation never hurt anyone. That's what I'd like to see.

Something more like this: "We are doing a trail work day on ____. Come out and do put in some hours. We could really use the help. also We'd love it if people would come out to discuss future plans for TTF / more advanced trails"

and less like this: "If you have the stones to do it, show up at the trail work day and pitch in instead of bitchin'. THAT'S how things change."

Granted it's a little difficult to maintain ones poise when Monkey's are flinging their poo right back at you but that's the job of a liaison isn't it? To maintain objectivity and mediate on the behalf of all parties present?

[CRAIG2]

I didn't mean my post to sound so much like that. Sorry if it was taken that way. Craig is a big boy and obviously speaks for himself. I'd like to not have this get confrontational. Green dots should not appear or dissappear because of what we're talking about here. I'd just like some clarity.

Thanks to all for posting the comments that you have.... Except Craig. ;) Lets keep it civil.

Pete

Oh, I think I'm being civil. I think, however, that a few people who have recently posted could show a greater level of appreciation for the level of effort MORE has put back into local mountain biking, and currently volunteers to ensure we have trails to complain about. Green dots have nothing to do with it - it's not an ego boost I'm after. So, sorry if I seemed uncivil or inflammatory.

If had made an actual inflammatory or uncivil comment, it would have started with something like, "Hey wanker, STFU already...".

Craig

[gaz]

See, rather than focus on the multiple efforts that MORE and it's volunteers have TRIED to do for local freeriders (the VAST majority of which have been ignored) you're focusing on ONE situation, and blowing it completely out of proportion. And then people trash this club, deriding it for not doing enough, and not caring.

And you want MORE to kiss THEIR arses?!!

Fat chance, pal!

It should be the other way around - Mike copped crap as the Patapsco trail liaison when Lewis and Clark were discovered. And he's fought tooth and nail since then to keep them open - they'd have been dead 12 months ago if not for him and his efforts on behalf of the FREERIDING COMMUNITY. And all people seem to repeatedly do is whine and moan about how it's not enough, it's never enough. Peter has posted here explaining that in addition to the increasing amount of TTF's that MORE are TRYING to add, there's a ton of natural ones. He even offered to take you on a tour and show folks them. And STILL that's not enough.

MORE members (like myself!) might come across as overbearing at times, especially when it comes to folks messing with the trails illegally. But reading several of the posts in this thread, reading the responses on Ridemonkey, noting that there's now a dedicated freeriding section on here where the "man" (cause that's apparantly what MORE is) is asking over and over again "tell us what you want!! We'll do what we can!!", it seems it's never going to be enough. I get the serious impression that the whining will constantly go on unless MORE arbitrarily decides to build a full-on north shore course, while the freeriders kick back and talk their smack on the message boards. (And even if MORE did do that, I'd imagine that folks would find something wrong with it, announce that it's not challenging enough, or get mad because it was done without the input of the freeriding community.)

Kiss ass. HA!

[Dirt]

How can I say this with out ruffling any(MORE) feathers, dead chicken or otherwise?

I think the point vwmtber is trying to articulate is that some of the some of the posts on RM by MORE members like Citybikesmike came across as very confrontational and challenging. I don't believe that was his intention at all but that was the effect. I know that when ever I am challenged or confronted I tend to put up my guard and come back from a defensive stance.

I grew up in the South and am a little more used to Southern style charm and hospitality. In general people in this area just come across as mean and grumpy. I'm sure they aren't really mean angry people really. It's just a perception on my part and I'm try to learn to deal with it and not be so offended by it.

Where am I going with this? Political Savvy... A little ass kissing and subtle manipulation never hurt anyone. That's what I'd like to see.

Something more like this: "We are doing a trail work day on ____. Come out and do put in some hours. We could really use the help. also We'd love it if people would come out to discuss future plans for TTF / more advanced trails"

and less like this: "If you have the stones to do it, show up at the trail work day and pitch in instead of bitchin'. THAT'S how things change."

Granted it's a little difficult to maintain ones poise when Monkey's are flinging their poo right back at you but that's the job of a liaison isn't it? To maintain objectivity and mediate on the behalf of all parties present?

Good post. Thanks.

I can't speak for the stuff that was posted on Ride Monkey. Many different people have welcomed input, asked for help with design of trails and TTFs, given opportunities to do trail work and such over the last year. These "exchanges of ideas" (for lack of a better term) have come with many different tones... some like Craig posted early (the hard sell), some like SG did in the past when people were invited to work with Rich Edwards from IMBA on some trails at Conway (the soft sell), and some, like mine, that are somewhere in between.

It sounds like what we should do is the next time we're doing trail work in an area that is TTF friendly (read Maryland), we need to advertise in advance and do so both here on the MORE board and also on Ride Monkey and be there to answer questions and volley monkey poo when it is flung at us. :)

Is that a possible solution to the issue?

After March 20 when the VA forum opens up again, I'll post a ride announcement for Buzzard Rocks and see if anyone wants to go out and do a photoshoot around there.

Is that butt smoochie enough or should I get some red lipstick so I can really leave a mark. ;)

Thanks again for your comments.

Pete

[kuru]

OK, I have absolutely no idea what SoreBack is attempting to say. Guess we should move on to watch the dead or eat chicken... or perhaps ride.

I think I have translated it:

OK, MORE unleash Armageddon (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120591/), but as a Perfect Stranger (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457433/) I agree with vwmtnbiker that MORE has missed The Whole Nine Yards (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190138/). The reason they missed it is because their eyes are blinded by Tears of the Sun (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0314353/). Trying to get MORE to embrace The Fifth Element (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119116/) of mountain biking is like trying to get the army of the Twelve Monkeys (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114746/) to recruit The Astronaut Farmer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0469263/). vwmtnbiker, your are a Grand Champion (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0335126/) single handedly fighting Hart’s War (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0251114/) behind enemy lines. What were you thinking when you went alone intoSin City (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401792/)?

I am not a Die Hard (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095016/) or any of its incantations. In fact ,I do not consider myself to be in Striking Distance (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108238/) of most riders here. I just like to ride 16 Blocks (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450232/) now and then. I am not siding with Bruno the Kid (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115118/) or telling the Rugrats Go Wild (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0337711/) , I just believe that MORE advocacy is Pulp Fiction (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110912/).

My Sixth Sense (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0167404/) tells me that The Jackal (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119395/)s are having Mortal Thoughts (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102469/)

[Dirt]

See, rather than focus on the multiple efforts that MORE and it's volunteers have TRIED to do for local freeriders (the VAST majority of which have been ignored) you're focusing on ONE situation, and blowing it completely out of proportion. And then people trash this club, deriding it for not doing enough, and not caring.

Politics is perception. It doesn't matter so much what we do as much as how it is perceived.

I think the problem may be that the only time we go over to post in Ride Monkey is when someone sends up a huge flame about what asses all the people in MORE are. Then we all rush over with our hackles up to defend all that we've worked so hard for.

As I go back and read some of this, I think the idea that might work for solving the differences is that MORE needs to be more ACTIVE instead of REACTIVE. Instead of addressing a problem, we need to provide a solution. The difference is subtle, but might be what we need.

There's a trail work day May 14th at Schaeffer, for example. (I'm talking off the top of my head (often mistaken for out my ass) so bear with me). If some of the trail work to be done involved some areas around the TTFs or even some NEW TTFs, that trail day should be announced both on the MORE board, but also on Ride Monkey with an invitation to take part in the shaping of the trails. This invite should be done as a stand-alone and NOT associated with any of the arguments or flame-fests that have gone on.

That is the kind of step that would be perceived as constructive and positive, rather than negative and reactionary. I'd encourage ANY AND EVERY person from the MORE board who has ridden the TTFs and loves them to go over to Ride Monkey and encourage some participation.

Act, don't react.

It's a start.

PEte

[gaz]

Politics is perception. It doesn't matter so much what we do as much as how it is perceived. You're right. (For once!) The issue at hand isn't trail-related - everyone agrees that more trails is a good thing, and more TTFs are welcome. I think the issue is a percived lack of respect by MORE and the various "rogue" trailbuilders towards each other. We're not helping our percieved stereotypes when some of us act like "crotchety old men" and some o' them act like "snot nosed kids". Bottom line is that if everyone works together the end result will be more kickarse places to ride.

[urbaindk]

Thank you Dirt for elucidating my point. That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.

[Dirt]

You're right. (For once!) We're not helping our percieved stereotypes when some of us act like "crotchety old men" and some o' them act like "snot nosed kids". Bottom line is that if everyone works together the end result will be more kickarse places to ride.

LOL Mark this date on the calendar. Out of almost 1700 posts, I'm finally right! WOOHOOO! I can die a happy man.... a happy, crotchety, old man that is. ;)

Keep your eye on the prize. :)

Pete

[Dirt]

Thank you Dirt for elucidating my point. That's pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.

Thanks. :) I'm not sure the whole lipstick comment would qualify under "elucidating". I think most would agree it was pretty asinine, but I'm glad that some of the post may have hit the mark. :D

Take care. I gotta get a few things done here at the office before I pedal home.

Pete

[Dirt]

Oh yeah... One more thing. Is it okay if I move this over to the Freeride forum? I can leave it here, or just a link to it here. I think it is more appropriately placed over there. :)

Thanks.

PEte

[gaz]

Keep your eye on the prize. :)I have decided that THIS (http://www.soulcraftbikes.com/id61.htm) is the prize, actually. Can I have it now? :D

If not, I will grudgingly settle for THIS (http://gallery.jessicaalba.net/albums/mic/ITBC6.jpg) instead. If I have to.

[urbaindk]

Thanks. :) I'm not sure the whole lipstick comment would qualify under "elucidating". I think most would agree it was pretty asinine, but I'm glad that some of the post may have hit the mark. :D


It would be the internet without a smartass witty retort now would it? ;)

[Squirrel Girl]

Keep your eye on the prize. :)I've got my eye on your prize...... :eek:

<OK, I DID NOT SAY THAT!>
:p :rolleyes:

<<OK, so Peter said it was OK if I post this, so here goes!>>

[Dirt]

I was feeling unloved in this thread. I was being so serious about things that no-one picked up on any of the golden opportunities for off-color comentary.

Thanks for helping me renew my faith in those that mean so much to me.

Gaz: I sat through that movie and Fantastic Four for exactly the purpose you outlined in your comment. I was not disappointed.

I wouldn't kick that Soulcraft out of bed unless it wanted to be ridden on the floor. ;)

Love,

Pete

[soreback]

its actually quite simple and you all probably still wont get it... but, what i was tapdancing around was that, to me, you guys are often come across as confrontational, challenging, and sometimes even smug, condescending and intolerant of anything other than what your club pontificates (and no, i dont mean illegal ttfs or illegal trails). i think that was what vwmtnbiker was alluding to regarding your treatment of others outside of your club here. but then again, i guess people acting this way often dont really see that they are being that way, and that is the point.

for example, the lady that got lost at fountainhead not too long ago. do you think that if she read that thread on here, she'd want to join your club?? but then again she might, but i know if i were her and read it, i wouldnt join. if memory serves me right... some of the comments were, "she got what she deserved", i believe she was called "stupid" and "making the entire MTB community look bad", just to name a few.

ok, there goes my 1 green dot.


This is getting frustrating. :D

If I'm so dense that I'm missing the point, instead of telling me that I'm missing the point, why don't you TELL ME WHAT THAT POINT IS???

[jabberwocky]

its actually quite simple and you all probably still wont get it... but, what i was tapdancing around was that, to me, you guys are often come across as confrontational, challenging, and sometimes even smug, condescending and intolerant of anything other than what your club pontificates (and no, i dont mean illegal ttfs or illegal trails). i think that was what vwmtnbiker was alluding to regarding your treatment of others outside of your club here. but then again, i guess people acting this way often dont really see that they are being that way, and that is the point.

for example, the lady that got lost at fountainhead not too long ago. do you think that if she read that thread on here, she'd want to join your club?? but then again she might, but i know if i were her and read it, i wouldnt join. if memory serves me right... some of the comments were, "she got what she deserved", i believe she was called "stupid" and "making the entire MTB community look bad", just to name a few.

ok, there goes my 1 green dot.Its worth noting that people posting on the MORE board are not necessarily MORE representatives, or even MORE members. Thinking ill of MORE because of one thread on the forum would be like me going over to MTBR, reading the Alaska forum, find one offensive thread, and then saying that people from Alaska are all arrogant jerks.

I do think there is a valid point of discussion here, though. MORE has, in the past, focused its efforts on cross country trails. There are numerous valid reasons for this. Its probably easier to get approved, and the people working the hardest to get the trails built like to ride that kind of trail. The result of a few years of this is a lot of great cross country trails in the area, but not very much in the way of freeride stuff. But another result of this is excellent relationships with the managing entities at a lot of these parks. If respected people from the freeriding community would step up and join forces with MORE, they could be making use of these excellent relationships to start getting freeride trails built legally. I believe (and correct me if I am wrong) this is what has happened at the 495 jumps. They were going to get plowed, but MORE and some of the locals got together and worked with the powers that be to keep them. Corey from dcstreet said it himself over on ridemonkey, that without MORE, those jumps would have been bulldozed a year ago. But by the same token, I'm almost sure that without the cooperation of the locals who ride those jumps, MORE would have no reason to be involved with saving them.

[Dirt]

its actually quite simple and you all probably still wont get it... but, what i was tapdancing around was that, to me, you guys are often come across as confrontational, challenging, and sometimes even smug, condescending and intolerant of anything other than what your club pontificates (and no, i dont mean illegal ttfs or illegal trails). i think that was what vwmtnbiker was alluding to regarding your treatment of others outside of your club here. but then again, i guess people acting this way often dont really see that they are being that way, and that is the point.

for example, the lady that got lost at fountainhead not too long ago. do you think that if she read that thread on here, she'd want to join your club?? but then again she might, but i know if i were her and read it, i wouldnt join. if memory serves me right... some of the comments were, "she got what she deserved", i believe she was called "stupid" and "making the entire MTB community look bad", just to name a few.

ok, there goes my 1 green dot.

There are jerks on EVERY web forum I've ever been on. I should know. I'm one of them. As a moderator here, I try to keep things more or less on the civil side of things. The thread you pointed out was certainly not our brightest hour.

That said, damning the club, the trails it builds, the attitudes of its governing board and it's whole reason for existing because of some things that are said on its internet forum doesn't make much sense.

I'm sorry you were offended by that thread. I would hope that in the future, you would feel comfortable using the "Report Bad Post" button in the upper right corner of each post. I'd hope that someday people would feel good about speaking up and saying "Hey! You think her actions say something bad about the Mountain Biking community, what does this thread say about it????" In general I've found that respectfully calling someone out on an outragious comment is received pretty well by folks. I've done it at least twice to other contributors and a few times to myself in this thread alone (one of the joys of having many personalities that can type).

That said, I think the problem goes deeper. When I say "the problem", I'm honestly not assigning that problem to any one group or person. It is a problem that needs to be resolved within the whole mountain biking community.

The way many freeriders are perceived is that they want to go outside their front door, ride 100 yards (or get shuttled) and hit some SWEET jumps and TTFs without having to work for it.... and when I say work for it, I mean do the trail advocacy, build the jumps and TTFs (though I think that's 1/2 the fun) or even ride to the top.

I know that sounds damning and short sighted on my part. It really isn't.

If you talked to ANY XC weiner on MORE, they'd tell you that what they'd really love is to walk outside their front door, ride 100 yards (or get shuttled) to the trailhead of some SWEET, swoopy singletrack and not have to work for it (trail advocacy or building it (though building it is 1/2 the fun)).

What's the difference?

1) XC weiners like to go up as well as down the hills. No biggy. To each their own.

2) XC weiners have been around long enough that we remember when we had MUCH MORE of that "ride right from home" and had it all taken away because of irresponsible trail use. There was a time a while back when the only open trails in Northern VA were parts of Wakefield and Great Falls/Riverbend.

But I digress.

The problem is that one group is still looking for the quick fixx and the other group has given up on that. When a conflict arises between the two, the group that has given up tends to come off as pretty grumpy, negative and condescending.

If that is the only contact between the two groups, it is no wonder the MORE folks are perceived as self rightious pricks!

Now that isn't the only problem. There are personality issues between specific people that need to be resolved between them. I had a discussion with someone last night at Wakefield about stuff and it was obvious that some people on both sides are pissed off and frustrated. Everyone needs to get over this.

I think a lot has been done to help the situation. We've got some areas where TTFs are in. WE've got established MORE-ons working their butts off to save jumps and technical trails. We've got a freeride forum. We've got this thread and the discussions going on.

Most important of all, as of the typing of this post, you've still got your green dot. If anyone touches that green dot, you come to me. I'll fix you up. I can do stuff like that. I've got friends in even higher places. ;)

As I've said in two previous posts, I think that more can be done. MORE needs to be active in its communication with the freeride folks on Ride Monkey. I'll do what I can. If there are folks that don't mind riding up before they ride down, I'll be happy to take folks on some natural TTFs out in GWNF. My camera is locked and loaded and ready for some serious carnage.

I strongly encourage you to quit worrying about losing your green dot. Respectfully speak your mind when you see something that pisses you off or makes you happy. That is the pathway to green dots. Stand up for the rights of those who are not able to stand up for themselves.... you know... all the lost women out at Fountainhead. ;)

Sorry. I babbled on for way to long here. I actually have a fairly light day today, so I thought I'd put you all to sleep with my drivel (not to be confused with drevil or Dr. Evil). ;)

Happy Happy Joy Joy.

Pete

[BikerMiker]

You can't expect people to do work for you. You have to do the work for yourself. MORE has been around for a while and so have many of us riders. We are 'xc weenies' (I hate that) at heart because that's what mtn biking was for a long time (and still is for A LOT of people).

The original Judy DH from Rock Shox had 3" of travel. Did you guys even know that? 3"? We've come a LONG way since 1995.

The reality here is that us older riders remember when we had to fight, tooth and nail, for every foot of singletrack out there. Many places we all complain about were almost closed (yes, even Patapsco a few times).

Fr/Dj/Dh riders are VERY MUCH in the minority of total trail users. That's a fact. I would step aside at Patapsco trail liaison for a freeride/dh/dj person IN A HEARTBEAT if I was able to spend some time with them and felt that they would be able to represent ALL RIDERS to the park, which is what I have to do.

And PLEASE don't criticise me for posting on RideMonkey. I GOT confrontational after I was flamed by a BUNCH of people but I don't go around saying 'I think freeriders are this or that.' City Bikes sponsors the ONLY local pro DH rider (Hillary Elgert) AND the only local FR/DH/DJ series in the area. Is that by accident? Is that because we sell a lot of that stuff? Nope. It's because the people that build the course and work with Whitetail are RESPONSIBLE for what they build. It's the future (growth) of the sport and I (we) support it with quite a bit of our resources. I'm certainly not beyond reproach, but I (and City Bikes) have done more to progress and promote this type of riding than anyone in the area (maybe).

People who are members of MORE are YEARNING for more of these experiences. We WANT and ENCOURAGE this type of riding. There's no other way to look at all of these posts. Gaz (who has espoused a lack of ability) is STOKED to have you involved but we are all sick of the whining.

No one will take your cause and run with it the way that YOU will or YOU can. We are doing our best to represent you without FR/DH/DJ people really being involved. THAT'S HUGE! All we are asking is for you to be as involved with us as we are with you.

We've pointed out all of the reasons why we want you involved but you still resist. I don't get it. We are all frustrated. We work so hard to keep trails open and fun so it's hard for us to see that we suck. Which we don't.

GET INVOLVED AND YOU WILL GET WHAT YOU WANT! If you just post on this forum, you'll get a bunch of reading done but no new ttfs or drops or skinnies or anything else. We don't make the rules here, that's just how it's done.

mike
new enduro sx trail on the way...

[BikerMiker]

Pete (dirt) is one eoquent SOB.

And Maryland is the South. We grow a lot of tobacco, have fat people (60% obese or overweight) and we drink sweet tea. Try hanging out in Calver County and tell me this ain't the south. The Mason-Dixon Line is the NORTHERN border of Maryland.

Sorry, just a little clarification and history.

mike
southerner, but stoked the Union won the war

[urbaindk]

Pete (dirt) is one eoquent SOB.

And Maryland is the South. We grow a lot of tobacco, have fat people (60% obese or overweight) and we drink sweet tea. Try hanging out in Calver County and tell me this ain't the south. The Mason-Dixon Line is the NORTHERN border of Maryland.

Sorry, just a little clarification and history.

mike
southerner, but stoked the Union won the war

Funny story. I few years ago when I was living in Chapel Hill, NC ( a few hundred miles south of the Mason-Dixon line and indisputably southern, I was in a band and we were touring. We played a show in Shreveport LA one night. Anyway, I was talking with some guy in Shreveport, LA and he asked me what I thought of "the south" and so I replied with pretty much exactly word-for-word your quote above. I felt like smacking him upside the head as I imagine you might want to do to me right now. Perhaps this is the south but there sure is a higher concentration of carpet bagging yankees around here. :)

I'm sorry to call you out by name in my post above. I shouldn't have done that. You've been picked on enough. I just wanted to make the point about differences in perception and used your quote as an example. I realize that there where circumstances that led to your frustration which may have changed your tone. (see poo-flinging monkey comment). Please accept my apologies.

Also. I've riding since '91, full rigid and definitely pre 3" Judy. Don't assume we are all obnoxious 15 year olds. Some of us are obnoxious 33 year olds that ride like obnoxious 15 year olds.

[drewdane]

Perhaps this is the south but there sure is a higher concentration of carpet bagging yankees around here. :)

Washington DC: a city of Northern charm and Southern efficiency - JFK (attributed) :D

[vwmtnbiker]

WOW this thread moved fast...i honestly didnt expect it to start this much conversation. i must say i am very glad to see that the message actually IS getting through. i would personally LOVE to take part in getting some techy stuff approved and of course the only reason i want to do that is so i can help build it!

i understand the stuff is hard to get approved BUT if enough people on here really want to try it then i say we start looking for an appropriate area and throw some ideas out.

to get the ball rolling...i dont know how many of you have been to conway robinson or even know where it is...but there is an area there that would make an excellent skills area. i will gladly meet with whoever, wherever, to discuss the potential and proper channels to go through for getting such an area up and going.

anyone on here please feel free to pm me and lets get a ride together or something.

cheers!

mark

[Dirt]

Probably the first opportunity to work on something like this will be at Rosaryville.

HERE (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3944) is the story about the project.

The Rose is an AWESOME Place for this kind of riding because it has some great rolling hills that give you an opportunity to do some fun stuff.

As for Conway, that may be an uphill battle. I'm sure some stuff can get done, but there's been some history at Conway and there are a lot of folks that get involved in trail design stuff. We'll see what we can do. I don't know when the next Conway work day is. Keep an eye on the calendar.

Pete

[Squirrel Girl]

The next ConRob workday is scheduled for May 21. HOWEVER, that's up in the air right now. The plan was to install bridges. The DoF will provide lumber. Initially MORE was to provide labor. Now there are Scouts who want projects so it might become a Scout project instead. There is no word on *when* the bridge schedule will pan out.

So..... that means the May 21 workday may be canceled (the only other work to do is blazing, and there *might* be plans on marking the trails in a different manner).

However, I will repeat again, freeriders are welcome and encouraged to come up with plans to submit to the DoF. The DoF has made indications that they would be receptive to TTFs. The ground rules are no dimensional lumber and make them sort of blend in with the surroundings. The guy providing lumber for the bridges has said he didn't want features that are too temptingly obvious for non-qualified riders begging them to try (then getting hurt). That was just one individual's commentary, but it seems representative of what they feel.

I will help you get your plans approved any way I can. I will not support you if the DoF says no, but I will try and work with you so they say "yes." I will help put your draft plans into a slicker package, such as a pdf. I just got Adobe software to make multipage pdfs, specifically for the purpose of being able to make better mtb (incl. freeride) plans.

You guys gotta give me something to work with, though. I'm not capable of designing the TTFs myself.

Barbara am Ende
Conway Robinson Liaison

[MyOtherBrotherL]

Don't assume we are all obnoxious 15 year olds. Some of us are obnoxious 33 year olds that ride like obnoxious 15 year olds.

Ahhh - To be 33 again. This is sort of off-topic, but it brings up a good point.

Several of us have brought up how we've been doing this for YEARS and YEARS. And frankly, we ain't getting any younger. I'm coming up on 43. Scud is older than some of the dirt at Wakefield and may have actually been there when the Civil War artifacts were fresh and new. Dan Hudson has rotated off of and retired from the MORE board at least 3 times.

The old Guard is approaching retirement and we need to replace some of our active members with new blood. Maybe a FR/DH Liaison, board member or activist is the what we need.

[soreback]

i dont believe i did any of that. i said it has nothing to do with trails, i didnt damn the entire board, the governing board, let alone its whole reason for existing. and i wasnt talking about one person's posts on one other board. i very simply, and i believe respectfully, stated how some on here (both registered users AND full MORE members), IMHO, come off to others sometimes (and im not talking about the ridemonkey community).



That said, damning the club, the trails it builds, the attitudes of its governing board and it's whole reason for existing because of some things that are said on its internet forum doesn't make much sense.

[Dirt]

i dont believe i did any of that.

Good point. You didn't. I know you didn't. Lots of folks have though... in person and in other places.

I guess my point is that WE ALL need to chill a little and not assume the worst in a person's tone. Don't assume that every comment is aimed at you, because it isn't. I also need to do the same thing. It is easy to say stuff in a way that can be taken as really confrontational when it wasn't necessarily intended that way.

Even when stuff is inflamatory, it doesn't do much good to get your hackles up. It just raises the level of tension and then you get to the point where everyone types and no-one reads or takes the time to really understand what others are saying.

Thanks to all for this great discussion.

Tomorrow should be an awesome day to hit the trails.

PEte

[soreback]

thats true, good point as well. it just easy to confuse it when someone quotes somebody's entire post in their response, it looks as if it can be aimed directly at the person being quoted... i think that would be a valid point to keep in mind as well.

[QUOTE=Dirt] iguess my point is that WE ALL need to chill a little and not assume the worst in a person's tone. Don't assume that every comment is aimed at you, because it isn't... [QUOTE]