New MORE Women Forum

[liznotter]

MORE has created a new forum specifically for women and mtb; not only will we post upcoming rides here, it will also serve as a place to chat about different women's mtb topics.

Our intent is NOT to create a segregated area for women; rather, it is to form a clearinghouse for information on this aspect of our sport (kind of like the new Freeriding forum).

To get discussion started, I'm posing this question: why are women a minority in mountain biking? What can we do to get them MORE involved?

Liz

[jabberwocky]

To get discussion started, I'm posing this question: why are women a minority in mountain biking? What can we do to get them MORE involved?

LizJeeze, I skateboarded for ten years, and in all that time I can count the number of women I saw on skateboards on one hand. Women may not be the majority in mountainbiking, but theres a lot of them and many are excellent riders.

I will say that women seem to have a bit more common sense than men, which is a major handicap when it comes to mountainbiking. ;) Suppress that survival instinct, ladies!

[gomogo]

I agree with jabberwocky. Most(?) of us hold onto that 'i must live' thing real tight, maybe it's a species survival thing. We do care for the babies, after all. I would add that it's like any other dude-started sport, we could be intimidated by the guys and they by us. How many times, Jabberwocky, have you had a guy get all weird on you after you whopped his butt on your skateboard? Or even just held your own?

I played softball for years and when I joined a co-ed team, I had the hardest time convincing the coach (a male) that I could replace his male left fielder at some games. When I did well, I didn't always get "way to go," I got teased for "playing like a guy."

m

Jeeze, I skateboarded for ten years, and in all that time I can count the number of women I saw on skateboards on one hand. Women may not be the majority in mountainbiking, but theres a lot of them and many are excellent riders.

I will say that women seem to have a bit more common sense than men, which is a major handicap when it comes to mountainbiking. ;) Suppress that survival instinct, ladies!

[liznotter]

Jeeze, I skateboarded for ten years, and in all that time I can count the number of women I saw on skateboards on one hand. Women may not be the majority in mountainbiking, but theres a lot of them and many are excellent riders.
I will say that women seem to have a bit more common sense than men, which is a major handicap when it comes to mountainbiking. ;) Suppress that survival instinct, ladies!I agree on both counts... there are many excellent women mtb'ers out there, though when I'm out on the trails, other women are few and far between. I'm curious as to why.

And Chris, you have heard me say that my greatest mtb handicap is a over-developed sense of self-preservation.

Liz

[jabberwocky]

Jabberwocky, have you had a guy get all weird on you after you whopped his butt on your skateboard? Or even just held your own? Well, I'm a guy, so I was firmly in the majority when I skated. ;) I did in fact meet a few women skateboarders, but it was incredibly rare. It's kinda strange. Women riding skateboards are almost unheard of, but head to the ski slopes and count the women on snowboards and there are lots of them! And snowboarding is pretty dangerous. It may just be the perception of skateboarding as male dominated keeps women from seriously considering it. It may also be that there is some of that perception in mountainbiking too, which plays a part in how open women are to the idea of trying it. I don't really believe that theres a huge male bias in mountainbiking though. I've met many women riders while out on the trails. And there seems to be a lot of women interested in starting, which is great!

I agree on both counts... there are many excellent women mtb'ers out there, though when I'm out on the trails, other women are few and far between. I'm curious as to why.

And Chris, you have heard me say that my greatest mtb handicap is a over-developed sense of self-preservation.

LizI dunno, you did pretty good at Gambril that one time I rode with you there. I question the survival instinct of anyone willing to try Gambril after only a few months riding. :)

[gomogo]

Whooops! That's what I get for assuming. And I guess my survival instinct is fairly skewed, yippee! I took on Gambrill with no singletrack experience, dragging my teen son with me. We had a blast, wore ourselves out and picked up some scars, but had a ball.

m

Well, I'm a guy, so I was firmly in the majority when I skated. ;) I did in fact meet a few women skateboarders, but it was incredibly rare. It's kinda strange. Women riding skateboards are almost unheard of, but head to the ski slopes and count the women on snowboards and there are lots of them! And snowboarding is pretty dangerous. It may just be the perception of skateboarding as male dominated keeps women from seriously considering it. It may also be that there is some of that perception in mountainbiking too, which plays a part in how open women are to the idea of trying it. I don't really believe that theres a huge male bias in mountainbiking though. I've met many women riders while out on the trails. And there seems to be a lot of women interested in starting, which is great!

I dunno, you did pretty good at Gambril that one time I rode with you there. I question the survival instinct of anyone willing to try Gambril after only a few months riding. :)

[Squirrel Girl]

There is a much higher proportion of women cavers and cave divers than mountain bikers in my experience. I know of, and knew, a lot more cavers and cave divers who've died than bicyclists.

I still think it's weird. Almost every kid has a bicycle. Girls and boys. But the proportion skews tremendously when in comes to mountain biking adults.

You have to go way out of your way to become a caver, and there are a lot more women. Go figure.

[macdaid]

Not weird when you consider that women, a large majority of same, are adept multitaskers. And many of those are overachievers. I know many personally, and live w/one....

Interesting people.

:)

Dave


There is a much higher proportion of women cavers and cave divers than mountain bikers in my experience. I know of, and knew, a lot more cavers and cave divers who've died than bicyclists.

I still think it's weird. Almost every kid has a bicycle. Girls and boys. But the proportion skews tremendously when in comes to mountain biking adults.

You have to go way out of your way to become a caver, and there are a lot more women. Go figure.

[Snot-Rocket]

To get discussion started, I'm posing this question: why are women a minority in mountain biking? What can we do to get them MORE involved?
Liz

SEXIST SHIMANO- basically the pure marketing might and mass delusion of the trigger shifter system has pretty much pushed out and/or created a barrier to women and small handed folks in general from ever getting into MTB. My years of introducing weenies into the sport has lead to the isolation of this factor as one of the most instrumental, subversive, sexual discriminating mechanism for Women to enter the sport :mad: ! I have discovered that Shimano has had years of a subversive anti-women MTB design and advertising campaigns in execution.

Bascially, besides basic bike handling, balance and what not- shifting is an instrumental skill to enjoy a good dirt ride for the masses (SS/Fixes excluded- even more male dominated sub-group). Trigger shifters are just a huge barrier to entry into the sport. Interestingly enough most entry level hybrids/cruisers opt for some simple-straightforward shifting system. Shiman has purposely forced bike manufacturers to host their trigger shifting, sexually biased abomination on MTBs to keep Women as a minority in the sport.

I've helped gals overcome log obstacles, hairy descents, bike maintenance, all kinds of details- however, shifting w/ Shimano Trigger Shifters is like the most challenging barrier and thus I started to apply my analytical powers to this issue and discovered yet a deeper, subversive and quite diabolical plot orchestrated from the center of Shimano Headquarters!

Recent history demonstrated that the ladies were still getting into MTB, thus the introduction of their even more abysmal and diabolical integrated brake and shifting system to foul up any new comers.

Not to mention the 2:1 cable pull/shift ratio lends to higher maintenance requirements. Per the assumption gals don't like grease- this was another subversive passive measure to make the cost of MTB higher if a body didn't get into the mechanics.

The introduction of the 27-speed was a second tier passive barrier- folks know 8-speed was just about optimal per performance, durability and minimal redundancy in gear rations- ha...so Sexist Shimano introduced the 27-speed- why trigger shifters, redundant gears and decreased mechanical efficiency- three strikes and women are out baby!

This goes all the way back to entrenched social norms. Japan has always been a segregated society respective to women and men hanging out. MTB is too gender friendly, thus Shimano recognized that this threat to their society required the introduction of mechanisms to isolate females from MTB and keep them restricted to the use of bicycles strictly as a mechanism for commuting (thus the simple internal gear shifting mechanisms w/ straightforward shifters) .

Now SRAM- the creaters of the "Liberating" GripShift system- founded on American ideology and equality created a system that is intuitively obvious, low maintenance and allows folks to intrinsically learn gear ratios or appropriate "gearing" respective to terrain. Granted, even SRAM could not defeat the institutionalized cultural biase w/in the MTB community per Trigger Shifters- so they had to create a compromise in order to get their products spec'd on a bike. This was a complex design challenge- regarding deep investigation in patents and the contractual arguments levied on bike manufactures by Sexist Shimano- a loop hole was discovered that a "Trigger System" would be legal to spec w/ out finacial penalties on manufacturers. The Shimano's agenda was that they could force competitors into a patent infringement and via law suits strong arm other manufacturers like SRAM out of the business via bankruptcy due to legal wars.

Anyway- that is why, really, this is the true story why Women have been purposely isolated from enjoying MTB. Unfortunately both Shimano and SRAM are fundamentally racist so that is why blacks and hispanics remain the true minority in MTB. Don't get me started on this :mad: !

Rah ;) !

[camp]

Anyway- that is why, really, this is the true story why Women have been purposely isolated from enjoying MTB.Wow, go for a ride there Snotty one. Those 2 micros keeping you from gettin' your stressies out or somethin'?

[Snot-Rocket]

Wow, go for a ride there Snotty one. Those 2 micros keeping you from gettin' your stressies out or somethin'?

Ha, ha- I'm actually struggling through a deliverable at work and thought I needed a hiatus and that was a fun one!

I was going to put a friendly disclaimer on the front end- but figured folks can't take that seriously- granted, I should state that now :p !

There is like one serious thread in that entire discourse- everything else was the product of a crippled mind.

Joy,

[CRAIG2]

Umm... yeah.... and I thought I was in the deep end with all my conspiracy theories...

Next I suppose that those tight, spandex shorts were a ploy to control population growth or something? :rolleyes:

[drewdane]

head to the ski slopes and count the women on snowboards and there are lots of them!
Snowboarding may benefit from its inception after the effects of Title 9 had a chance to fully seep into our culture, helping erase the old "sports aren't ladylike" stigma that was still in full force when skateboarding first hit the scene in the 70s (and Mountain Biking in the 80s, for that matter).

Or maybe I'm blowing smoke out of my... ears. Too many Sociology courses in college. :eek:

(Title IX, for those who aren't familiar, is the federal statute enacted in the early 70s obligating public universities to provide equal resources to Men's and Women's athletic programs. Over the past decade or so, many media sources have reported on the rise of women's sports - most notably soccer and basketball - in the public eye as a partial result of the attitudinal changes engendered by the Statute)

[TBLGirl]

Hey Snot Rocket- I happen to like my Shimano trigger shifters and even my new integrated shifters! I have ridden with shimano since I started riding. I have given SRAM shifters a chance. First, about 5 years ago using the old school gript shift and then about a year ago I tried their "women's" style. Everyone kept telling me they were better for women and they were that hot item- well not for me. They always hurt my hands. So...my smaller hands prefer trigger shifters- even if Shimano is the antifeminst corporate giant you think- they work for me. Just proves everyone is different and sometimes it takes trying things out even if they aren't the cool thing or the in thing or The Thing- it's whatever works for you.

[Snot-Rocket]

Hey Snot Rocket- I happen to like my Shimano trigger shifters and even my new integrated shifters!

Have your heard of "Stockholm Sydrome"- same difference ;) .

Ha- you are outside the bell curve per this issue- like how many bikes do you have already? Trigger shifters work fine if you have the desire to get through them...every anti-Shimano aka "Da Man" opportunity I get to toss in a jab I have to take advantage of dontchaknow.

In all seriousness- I think the majority of the minority gender, even racial diversity issue is all about marketing. Bicycle advertisements are heavily slanted towards men from how they depict Mountain Biking to the male biased sexually connotive adds- consider Marzzochi and SRAM in the past have heavily used blatantly sexually connotive adds to market their products. Inter-bike, male oriented. MTB Mags- uber male oriented. Only recently it has dawned on the bike industry that there are women who are employed, like to enjoy the outdoors and like cycling- they were some women specific "niche" manufacturers like "Terry Bikes"- but I swear it was Santa Cruz and their Juliana that opened up the women specific Bike Market- yeah, some can argue others. However, the Juliana (in my male dominated MTB perspective) was like the biggest mainstream media, women specific, platform I can every recall and once SC proved marketing to women could be profitable the gaggle followed suit.

So now that Gals appreciate they can ride- the good news today is that there are lots of women out there who can intro others into the sport. Per this thought, here are some observations/rules per introducing Women into MTB in general:

1. First of all- most women, not all already, take corrective input differently. I learned this during an interview per the Women's Championship Soccer team (in the zenith of the Mia Hamm days). Basically- the male coach outlined that w/ male players the coach can be more direct and corrective. He found that w/ women there is a tendency to take corrective instruction more personally- so emphasizing the positive and sneaking in the negative and/or working in the corrective input in a positive manner really paid off in the respnsiveness of the players. I personally found this to be very true for the most part, but not all the time- per my clinics, I used to apply a general rule and tailor corrective input to the personality- but in general, gals responded much better to a "atta girl- and you might want to consider this detail next round..."

2. if you are dating (i.e. having sexual and/or emotional relations- whether you be a woman and/or man w/ a woman)- find a friend or trusted agent (male or female) who you think is a good rider and patient mentor and have them take your significant other for their first ride or so. This ain't necessarily a gender specific issue- just happens that there are more males who mtb w/ gal friends who don't. I think this is tied to women, generally, taking corrective input personally- where as a guy in the reverse situation tends to not want to listen. It is also still a norm where most guys don't take kindly and/or don't like women giving instruction on how to MTB- I experienced this in the Army per male venues and find this the norm in society (and screw any politically correct normalized perspectives out there- wrong!). This isn't 100% but is consistent enough to consider it a safe bet. Also, when guys teach gals- if there are "relations"- I've noticed a bit more impatience and judgement- so gals should be taking things personally. In general- I separate couples in clinics or when guy friends have me intro their gal friends- I don't allow the guy to come out at all during the intro instruction and initial ride.

3. The Title 9 Issue...now this is true for some men (metrosexual phenom and what not- dunno)...however, I've found some gals have been brought up away from "contact" like sports. For example, I knew a gal who is a solid rider today who feel and got a good "rasberry" from the experience- she was at a total loss for the severity of the injury even what to do- it took a bit to appreciate this frame of reference (experienced this w/ a guy also) my first exposure- but just realizing that some folks have never fell down hard, got bruised, winded and/or what not is a big deal in easing folks into MTB. There is nothing wrong w/ this- just gotta recognize and respect the lack of experience. Some gals it is obvious they've been out there and adapt fine- granted, I've found more gals then guys where getting scratched, bruised and beat up wasn't normal. I still hold/maintain that women are socialized to not be competitive as men- per my Army experience I got to work w/ many stellar gals and it was amazing how much my own perspective was biased as were the gals. An interesting learning point is that gals do cry easier then men- granted, you come to learn that this ain't cause gals are weaker- some just "cry" in a situation where a guy would curse and swing at someone- crying doesn't necessarily mean a person is weak or is a sign of weakness. I know many guys and even myself have been pushed to tears per the duress of combat training and what not. Gals seemed to do this more often- but didn't make them less effective, even when they had ignorant male subordinates who didn't respect the tears...these gals got respect per proven performance. MTB is a male socialized venue- it will likely be decades before it is otherwise.

4. Basic Bike Handling- this is a for men also. Now when me spousal unit decided she wanted to MTB...the first thing we did was go for a regular old bike ride on the wonderful rails to trails in this area. My rule of thumb is you must be able to do 20-miles on pavement for 1-hour on dirt (per a Wakefield like trail). Per the basic conditioning phase I noted the Spousal Unit lacked basic acclimation to biking. Yes, she could ride a bike- however, she was a bit hesitant and sketchy at high speeds, in tight spaces (passing folks) and a bit slow on shifting. So I subversively encourage urban excursions where we worked her basic fitness, shifting and braking and when she was zipping through traffic like me- I knew she was familiar w/ her bike. I also retro-fitted her bike w/ GRIP SHIFTS so I could toss out gear ratios for her to try so she could rapidly get familiar w/ shifting- also convey rules, like if you are on "1 up front and you feel like you want to go to 5 on the rear- maybe just go 2 front and 3 rear and see how you feel, etc. The point here- is that I've found more women who weren't acclimated to cycling and need more saddle time in friendly scenarios- like WO&D, Urban excursions around the mall, etc. So if a gal and/or any newbie- if they want to try MTB, try a fun Urban ride and see if they have the basic fitness and handling skillz. I run into more then a few folks who never got a real taste of MTB because their first riding experience was MTBing- ha, ha! Sometimes the best path is the indirect one- assess your newbie and bring them into the sport right.

5. Finally- for women and some guys (I'm one of them), MTB is more fun as a social activity. I personally like riding w/ gals- cause it is the communal experience that makes the ride more fun. Granted, this may not be a gender issue- but really an "enthusiast" versus a "racer" mentality. Granted for female beginners- MTB is fun as a social affair...friendly pace, banter and what not. Guys tend to subscribe to the pack mentality and gut check "Alpha Biker" dealio...literally 3 - 4 years ago, the only folks MTBing where folks who "earned" the right...I remember when Thursday night rides were for the proven and true- there was no luv for newcomers of any kind. Granted, club rides now have lots of diversity and depth.

6. Okay- one more. Now some folks think I'm an "arsehole" and I've been inappropriately accused of lacking of sensitivity and what not. For example- on a ride a gal asked me how I did something and I answered, "man strength". Now some folks would find that offensive- but folks who know me- know I hate all people equally and treat them the same- ha, ha! Actually- I don't patronize women when hosting a clinic and/or taking them on a ride. Some dudes and gals- think treating new gals like they are handicapped or something is being nice- they talk slow, over-patient and have a subtle, subconcious patronizing perspective...this provides no value and actually handicaps the student if they can put up w/ this perspective. My perspective is that any weenie who enjoys cycling can MTB and MTB safely- it just takes a bit of practice- respect the sport, earn your skillz per practice, not just riding and everything will come to you.

I personallly am guarded against women specific clinics that focus on the fact that women need "special training"- I hate this angle, I think it is patronizing and condescending- makes it sound like women are handicapped are something which is not true. MTB is a male dominated sport and I'd like the women specific training angle that's about not having guys around trying to work some arse angle or having an ego-fit for loosing face in front of gals. Per experience- I've had more annoying male students then gal students through the years cause it is a guy thing dontchaknow...

Anyhow- some thoughts and Shimano Sucks!

OUT!

[Freseray]

I think the reason is really quite as plain as the nose on your face. Women are not as physically strong as men and real mountain biking is a tough sport. Thats why there arent as many mountain bikers who are women. Why dont people just say it?

And as to the women specific clinics. I personally prefer them. There were many times when I have ridden with all guys and was afraid to try some decent or bump in front of guys, although I might have tried alone. Dont ask me why.

[Snot-Rocket]

[QUOTE=Freseray]I think the reason is really quite as plain as the nose on your face. Women are not as physically strong as men and real mountain biking is a tough sport. Thats why there arent as many mountain bikers who are women. Why dont people just say it?
QUOTE]

:eek: Hey, I can't see my nose, we'll barely even though it is on my face- need a mirror for that- ha, ha! It is 0530 and I'm at work- more work then time, but this is a good diversion as I let my quad-venti mocha seep into my system....mmmmm....

Physical strength in MTB is only relevant respective to certain trials-like / free riding dyanmics moves. Not really strength, but the ablity to generate the appropriate amount of power to move a relative mass. Now most of MTB is not about hucking huge gaps, mounting logs/benches and other details. The core of MTB is XC/Trail riding type activities. Per this class of riding- technique and endurance are the driving factors. Lots of folks do not understand how to apply proper MTB technique to basic moves and thus depend on strength and momentum.

I think it is a Western Philosophy / New-American perspective towards hard work- per my experience w/ clinics the majority of folks want the quick win; don't want to earn skillz; they want to do it the first attempt or soon thereafter. I try to teach the fundamentals relatively to body position, weight distribution, bike dynamics/physics and relaxation...again brute force and momentum only takes you so far. I guarantee any body who masters the fundamentals will become a very competent MTB cyclist on any terrain.

Two Factors- call one biological challenge and the other bike design:

1. Gals aren't often proportionally strong enough per thier upper body- that is forearms, triceps, shoulders, chest in that order. There are some genetics to it- but it is also tied to activities/sports- this can easily be amended w/ some strength training- I encourage push-ups, elbows as close to the torso as possible- get up to 50 and that is an solid indicator of a balance between muscular strength and endurance...makes a huge difference. Second, gals weight distrubution/center of gravity is biased to their lower body- so details like mounting logs and balanced weight distribution per technical ascents required a bit different techniques then some guys- all these things can be compensated by proper bike design.

2. Gals and/or shorter riders have some unique challenges- bikes are designed primarily by guys for guys. Things like popping a wheelie is harder the shorter you are- thus details in women specific bike geometry are decisive factors for a solid technical riding bike for many women. There are lots of intrinsically bad details per bike design and set up- for example if you are shorter, 5'6 and under- a 100-mm travel fork may not be the best thing if you want to ride big logs and what not- great for bashing, but not great for lifting that front tire high enough to mount a solid 8-16" log. Not an issue of strength but solid technique and balance and you need more of it per this manuever the shorter you are. Gals who like 29ers- well it gets even harder per these platforms...this is where strength really kicks in because a person has to compensate for intrinsic bike dynamics shortcomings per strength- like force the bike past an entry point threshold to enable a maneuver. There are ways to "set up" a bike per your biological biases and mental perspective- however a weenie must be steeped in bike specific physics/design, etc. to help you out per these details (5th level Jedi training).

Per my opinion and experience- "Real" mountain biking is NOT a tough sport, NOT an "extreme" sport- it is just an outdoor recreational activity and has the same challenges and thresholds as hiking, camping, rock climbing, etc. There is a "toughness" threshold for these activities and they are more mental then physical. Folks like sexing up the perception that MTB is exclusive per these details- a bunch of BS. It is just about riding a bike on dirt and having a familiarity w/ what this is about and ultimately a body discovers it ain't a big deal at all.

I remember the first time my Wife and I was out at Accotink- I took her on a hike around the park (part of my subersive agenda) so that she could see what single track looks like from a benign perspective. This is a critical detail for any weenie- exposure to single track for the first time on a bike isn't a good. I like building folks up mentally for dirt riding so they can recognize what a sham MTB is really about... Anyway, the spousal unit was like- I can never ride this. She said this cause she never rode on dirt before, wasn't familiar w/ what bikes can do and how easy it is all really... Today, even when she hasn't ridden in ages- she has no qualms riding most trails because it is all familiar to her. Nothing mystical- one you have an informed frame of reference- it is just biking on dirt...which anyone can do- ha, ha!

although planned- it turns out I'm not doing clinic for yet another year except for via the secret squirrel angle and you have to know the special squirrel to figure this out- if there is a will there is a way...but your perspective is off per MTB.

Anyway- gotta nug and earn my rate. I outline one day why I don't like riding w/ the average MTB guys...

Joy,

[gomogo]

Whew! You're a finger-flyin' chatty kinda guy, and I mean that in a friendly gender neutral way. I'm with you on the 'special training needs of women' angle. I may be dense in some areas and special in others, but just explain stuff to me like a human. If I don't get, it's probably not because I'm a girl.

Yes, women-specific clinics appeal to me because, in general, we tend to check our testosterone at the door and just learn. We don't try to compete with each other to know the most stuff or see who can piss the farthest.

I look forward to seeing all kinds of people out there as I learn this cool sport.

mo


I personallly am guarded against women specific clinics that focus on the fact that women need "special training"- I hate this angle, I think it is patronizing and condescending- makes it sound like women are handicapped are something which is not true. MTB is a male dominated sport and I'd like the women specific training angle that's about not having guys around trying to work some arse angle or having an ego-fit for loosing face in front of gals. Per experience- I've had more annoying male students then gal students through the years cause it is a guy thing dontchaknow...
OUT!

[liznotter]

Women are not as physically strong as men and real mountain biking is a tough sport. Thats why there arent as many mountain bikers who are women.

Sure mtb is a tough sport, but it's not just brute strength. It also requires agility, balance, a willingness to ride full speed at immovable objects, and a certain tolerance to pain. All of which are NOT gender-specific. I have no problem muscling my bike up hills, it's the skill part that's proving harder to master.

Liz

[Mrs. Outlaw]

Sure mtb is a tough sport, but it's not just brute strength. It also requires agility, balance, a willingness to ride full speed at immovable objects, and a certain tolerance to pain. All of which are NOT gender-specific. I have no problem muscling my bike up hills, it's the skill part that's proving harder to master.

Liz

That's so true. Focus on the skills part first. The more you ride the more you build up your endurance for stuff like loooong climbs! That's my mantra this year. :D

[heidi]

...is because not all women bike riders are 5'3" and 100#, and can FIT into women's specific clothing and look nice. Some of us have been forced to wear men's clothing --- and that just doesn't display the same sports fashion sense, now does it?

Heidi

[Snot-Rocket]

Whew! You're a finger-flyin' chatty kinda guy...

H.S. Typing Instructor- Vietnam Veteran, US Marine Corp!

Manual typewriters- holy crap, like do folks even know what those are these days?

[teresa]

Hrm...Chicken or the egg theory. This thread is interesting and I have had a few conversations with some guys on the trail about women and the new MORE jag. Liz will be able to increase the numbers of women on the trail just as Scud has done over the past ......what 15??? years.

When I first started doing MORE rides I would email a disclaimer to the trip leader that I was in fact a women and could (god forbid) slow down the pack. After my first two rides ( Wakefield & Elizabeth's Furnace) I knew I would never need to apologize for my gender to a MORE rider again. Everyone is very welcoming and willing to wait for: mechnical problems, bonking, flats, and yes out of shape couch potatoes of either gender. What a great club!

So why create a seperate forum and exlude men? Especially given the openness of this particular club. As a man, I imagine it can be annoying when you have made efforts to help women learn to ride. I can't entirely explain the sociology or physiology.

I have a women specific Gary Fisher Cake GS, so the equipment is coming around that actually has geometry designed for women's bodies. I have lead a few women's ride's back in Idaho and took a group of women only to Moab each year. It wasn't because we don't like men. Really just the opposite. My goal was to help build the beginners confidence so she could go ride with men and not be intimidated but relax and enjoy the ride.

The women's forum will put experienced riders with beginners to get some basic skills and confidence developed. Those beginners should be joining the co-ed groups after just a couple rides. I have volunteered to help Liz out and hope others will too.

[Squirrel Girl]

...is because not all women bike riders are 5'3" and 100#, and can FIT into women's specific clothing and look nice. Some of us have been forced to wear men's clothing --- and that just doesn't display the same sports fashion sense, now does it?

HeidiHeidi, Sweetie! You're petite compared to me! Lordy do I bum out because I can't fit in all the cute clothes. But alas, that didn't really doesn't have an impact as to whether I mountain bike or not. I, like Gaz, when I first started pedalling regularly, refused to come near bicycle-specific clothes. Now I wear what I can find, and yes, it's often made for men. :(

I think there are several categories that should be addressed.

There are athletic/outdoorsy women (I am one). And there are "normal" women (I don't come close to normal).

Why or why don't athletic women mtb? Is it because they're too busy with their other sports to try it? Is it because once they outgrew their childhood bikes, they don't feel like spending a few hundred/thousand bucks to try mountain biking?

Many "normal" women don't (mountain) bike because they get dirty. Or pedaling is too hard. A lot of women (and people in general) don't get much of any exercise, and don't want to. Perhaps some women go to gyms where there are other women with whom they can go and turn it into a social event (plus, all they need are a change of clothes in terms of gear).

I think that not having a loaner bike to try out mtbing may be a big part of it. Then there's the concept that it's work to get info about where to meet up with other women to go mountain biking. They gym is always there. They post their hours on the door and the internet. But there's only one MORE in the metro area, and it's harder to find, unless you've pre-determined that mountain biking is your thing.

Men? Time to post up what your wives and SOs say it would take (if it's possible) to get them to start mountain biking.

[liznotter]

So why create a seperate forum and exclude men? Especially given the openness of this particular club. The reason we created a separate forum was because women riders don't tend to surf the forums in the same numbers as men do. I wanted to make sure that women coming on the website infrequently, or for the first time, could find ride information easily. So Martin created this forum and added a quick link to it on the menu bar on the front page.

And many many thanks to Teresa, when she volunteered to help lead rides, the last puzzle piece to the women's rides fell into place.

Liz

[Mrs. Outlaw]

This forum doesn't exclude guys -- their input is welcome!

The women's rides shouldn't just be geared to teaching beginners to ride so they can join the co-ed rides. The idea behind women-only rides is partly so we can challenge ourselves in a supportive setting and partly to socialize with other women who share our passion for biking.

[ardenbees]

...is because not all women bike riders are 5'3" and 100#, and can FIT into women's specific clothing and look nice. Some of us have been forced to wear men's clothing --- and that just doesn't display the same sports fashion sense, now does it?

Heidi


I am soooo with you on this one. I am not ashamed to admit that I want to look like a girl, even if I'm riding or running or whatever. I love my running skirts. Guys don't dress like girls when they ride (some exceptions of course), so I think it's normal for girls to not dress like guys when they ride. And I fall into the same category you mentioned, Heidi: atypical body size for typical size clothing. Women's sizing (S, M, L) tends to get wider as the sizes increase, not compensating for length. Length can be in the torso, arms, or legs. In other words, a size large shirt does NOT fit a tall thin woman. It will be super wide, for a big fat body, but almost the same length from collar to waist as a small. And I've noticed women's clothing generally doesn't come in XL's. Not that an XL would fit either, because guaranteed it'd be wider, but not any longer. As a tall gal, women's clothes usually result in consistent exposure of an unattractive inch and a half of skin btwn my shirt and shorts.

Ok, maybe this is why a women's forum is beneficial: so we can swap fashion/shopping tips. I certainly don't expect to do that when I ride with the guys. The guys can poke fun at will if they like, but girls will be girls. You know you love us.

Anyway, I've noticed lately that North Face has some longer summer wicking tops, with WAISTS. Yes, the t's have curves; they are not square. It's not "cycling" gear, like with pockets on the back or anything. They're just outdoor wicking gear, but it works for me when I ride, and I still look like a girl (I hope).

[TBLGirl]

"why are women a minority in mountain biking?"

I think there are a couple of reasons why women hesitate to get into the sport of mtbing.
1. The first reason is that a guy thinks that he can take his wife, significant other, or girlfriend and teach her all she needs to know by taking her to his favorite riding spot that he has been riding for years....I can't tell you how many times I have gone to Fountain Head only to see some poor girl out in the middle of an 8 mile trail with a guy who thinks that Fountain Head is the best place to take her for her first ride. This just breaks my heart. He takes off and leaves her on her own- I am not sure why they do this but I have seen many women coming out off the trail on the edge of tears or in raged that he actually thought she would enjoy herself- this person will probably never ride again.

2. Many women are on the wrong size bike. Many times women will borrow a bike from someone when they start thinking of getting into mbting. This is fine if the bike fits. But if the bike is too big it is uncomfortablle and too hard to handle especially on single track. Many women think that it is their fault they can't navigate the trails or get over the logs, when in reality it is the bike not them.

3. Overall there is a misconception that mountain biking is an extreme sport.
And there is an even larger perception that mountain biking is a male sport. I think this is changing but in general when you see advertising for mountain biking it is generally a male getting all dirty and doing some screaming downhill. If you see an advertisement of a women on a bike she is typically on a girlie pink beach cruiser with a basket going shopping at some fruit market. Not say that it isn't enjoyable but it is not mountain biking.

4. And finally, I think many women are intimidated shopping for bikes. I know when I went to buy my first bike I just let the salesguy tell me what I needed because I thought I had no idea what I was doing. Which is funny because I am an expert shopper- it is in my jeans! Looking back I am not sure why I was so intimidated, maybe it was because all of the salespeople were guys and looked at my like I was crazy that I wanted a mountain bike. This was 10 years ago and I think that has changed too. But many women are intimidated by the "technology" of bikes. When in reality bikes are pretty simple it's the marketing and the "techy talk" that makes them seem so overwhelming. Does it really matter what the frame is made out of or how the suspension works? Maybe if you are avid rider already or want to get into racing, but not when you are just getting into the sport. What matters is that it is comfortable, it fits, and it will do what you need it to do...and in my case I want the right color too. Not to say that the quality and technology is not important -you don't want some cheap bike from Target or a hybrid that is not made for mountain biking.

As for MORE, I have had nothing but great experiences group riding. I have never felt out of place being a girl. I have felt some competition from the guys but that's typical for any ride where there are a group of guys- I don't think it has much to do with me being a woman.

So I am not sure that MORE can do any more than continue to have a variety of rides, open lots of great trails, have this great forum, and continue doing general clinics and women's clinics. Some women prefer to do co-ed clinics and rides while others just want to be around other women. I enjoy both. Some days it is nice to hang with the girls and not have the testostrogen thing coming into play.

[liznotter]

Thank all of you for these informative and well-thought-out comments.

I want to second TBLGirl's comment about the importance of the first mtb ride. Here's some important information for all guys: Schaeffer Farm is NOT a good third date. If you have the urge to take her mountain biking AND you ever want to see her again...find her a bike that fits, take her to Cedarville, Rosey, or the Cabin John trail (which is slightly more technical, but easy to get OUT of), and take the time to show her how to ride. Or point her toward a skills clinic. (All of this of course applies to all significant others!)

Granted, my first ride WAS Schaeffer Farm and I left bruised, bloodied and completely hooked. But I've had an extremely patient and instructive teacher, and that has made a huge difference.

I'd also like to note that the point of the women's rides is not to graduate women into the co-ed groups: it's to help make them comfortable enough to ride with whatever group they choose: men, women, and coed. And also, to provide a social network of local women who mtb, because it is FUN to ride with the girls! I've always biked with guys, and will continue to do so (check out RideInsanity, below), but I'm really, really looking forward to the first RideLikeaGirl ride (May 7, Cedarville).

I hope to see you out there!

Liz

PS. For great biking clothes, including skirts that go over existing bike shorts, check out Terry Bicycles (http://www.terrybicycles.com).

[soreback]

my 2 cents, i could be wrong but i think that for a first time place to take a lady to introduce her to mountain biking would be burke lake park (but its not a MORE sponsored park - GASP!!!). it has to be by far the flattest, easiest place in NOVA IMHO. It is great place to learn how to shift, get used to suspension, try out clipless pedals or just see what its like to ride a "mountain bike" versus that old schwinn from childhood days. theres also a mini golf putt-putt course and ice cream shack for after ride activities.

then after a few trips there, then go rosaryville, cedarville or cabin john for 1 level up type of terrain.

the one downside, you have to go really early or really late since it gets sooo crowded that its sorta hard to get any type of flow going during peak usage hours of the day.

P.S. if you go there and see a guy getting passed by kids on their trikes..., thats me... say hi!!!

[Snot-Rocket]

my 2 cents, i could be wrong but i think that for a first time place to take a lady to introduce her to mountain biking would be burke lake park (but its not a MORE sponsored park - GASP!!!).

I actually think parking in Alexandria and taking the Mount Vernon trail to Mount Vernon and back! This is a great way to guage basic fitness, learn how to shift on hills and then lock up the bikes for some ice cream and/or a nice lunch after the fact.

Once a body can make it to Mt Vernon and back- especially that last climb for beginners- they'll have the basic fitness, will have learned how to shift on climbs and will actually have more confidence because of their improved fitness- plus cycling will be fun cause it is ended w/ a nice waterside ice cremo and/or lunch.

Then hit the dirt- folks underestimate the value of basic bike confidence and fitness before hitting the dirt...

Rah,

[Squirrel Girl]

This isn't about "women" but because I had the discussion yesterday and it covers newbies and mountain biking, I'm gonna tell the story here, anyway.

A guy at work asked if I had plans this weekend. We talked about mtbing. He said he tried it once, but it wasn't for him. He was at a ski resort and did a downhill run over rocky terrain.

Don't do that! He was turned off to mtbing. I told him that was like learning to fly, but instead of starting in a Cessna, he started in a 747.

[soreback]

now why doesnt it surprise me that someone has to contradict on here, and that it would be you... lol...

I actually think parking in Alexandria and taking the Mount Vernon trail to Mount Vernon and back! This is a great way to guage basic fitness, learn how to shift on hills and then lock up the bikes for some ice cream and/or a nice lunch after the fact.

Once a body can make it to Mt Vernon and back- especially that last climb for beginners- they'll have the basic fitness, will have learned how to shift on climbs and will actually have more confidence because of their improved fitness- plus cycling will be fun cause it is ended w/ a nice waterside ice cremo and/or lunch.

Then hit the dirt- folks underestimate the value of basic bike confidence and fitness before hitting the dirt...

Rah,

[ardenbees]

Interesting the Alexandria/Mt Vernon trail, and the Burke Lake loop come up. I've got a story of my own. Back in maybe 1992 or 1993 my sister and I decided we wanted mountain bikes. We hadn't even been on bikes at all for about ten years. So we took our bikes to the Alex/MtV trail because we figured "Oh, it's paved. It can't be too hard, right?" Well, if you haven't been on a bike in ten years, it is very easy to underestimate the handling skills that are required for such a seemingly simple trail. We were pedaling along, came to a switchbacky downward slope (not even a hill, just a slope, maybe 20 feet in distance total), and both proceeded to have our bikes slide out from underneath us as we fell to the ground and tumbled down the slope in a big pretzel of arms and legs. Now that I think about it, we never did ride those bikes very much. I vote for Burke Lake as a first ride, regardless of gender. My "true beginner" days were not that long ago, so I declare myself to have superior authority in the matter than someone who has been riding with skill for many years. ;) (Just funnin' with ya, Snotrocket.)

[ardenbees]

I want to second TBLGirl's comment about the importance of the first mtb ride. Here's some important information for all guys: Schaeffer Farm is NOT a good third date.

Thank you! We may be impressed with your (the guy's) abilities, but our own embarrassment, sense of failure, and misery are going to supercede any positive feelings we may have toward the person who subjected us to such humiliation.

Now, if the girl already rides, Schaeffer might be a great third date. I can't say from experience, because I haven't been to Schaeffer. But that might be an especially nice third date if she's never been there before, and you drive so she doesn't have to.

[Snot-Rocket]

My "true beginner" days were not that long ago, so I declare myself to have superior authority in the matter than someone who has been riding with skill for many years. ;) (Just funnin' with ya, Snotrocket.)

...is post ending in shambles, hanging out getting scooby snacks and wrapping up a grand adventure w/ a nice tucking in of chow.

Another good loop is parking at Shirlington- 4-mile run towards 66 to the Cross Cresent Trial (?) to Rosslyn, Mt Vernon to 4-mile run- AND end w/ a nice scooby snack in Shirlington.

For the beginner- getting fit, hardening up the arse, learning the basics of the bike and shifting isn't that much fun- however the after ride social makes it a good deal and keeps them coming back! I think a key detail for this incentive is being able to ride up to the trough and tucking in! The Bistro Bistro Sunday Brunch (kinda pricey) is like an insanely awesome incentive- go ride and chow w/out constraint...you can get fit while eating like a sow np. As weenies get fit the chow fests will take care of themselves.

Kinda like stopping by the Jungle Gym on every trailer tow w/ my micro-human...

Ultimately- our minds are as sophisticated as pavlov's dog and simple associations always work...

I never really experienced the true beginner phase of MTB- I was just blessed by the creator, a hard life and the ability to apply the scientific method that MTBing just comes as natural as breathing in your sleep :p ! I actually acquired a surrogate MTB perspective by introing my Spousal Unit to the joys of cycling and MTB. Granted, our first few outings I was a typical arsehole- classic quotes like "you have 24-gears on this platform, if you have to get off and walk- you are fundamentally weak" and how about- "It is just pain, lay their accept it and if something is broken then ask for help." We actually couldn't ride together- she was so abysmally slow on her 1997 Trek 800- I couldn't take it and it was not fun at all. Some folks wonder why my current spouse even put up with me at this time (I keep telling them you have to see me Naked to understand :eek: ) - fortunately we didn't break up and persisted in our relations.

Then one day- when metro bikes was still in Shirlington- when we were passing by for me to drool at money rides- she saw a Cannondale M400 and wanted to buy it- holy moly, that bike was like night and day- she was hauling on that bike (technology baby!) and cycling w/ spouse was so fun- I had to reassess my approach to interfacing w/ the Spousal Unit to encourage her participation (cause biking w/ Spouse or SO is way more fun then w/ any other weenies)- again, my great brain came through and the rest is history per my deliberate methodology and curriculm to intro weenies to MTB.

I live on a hill in Ravensworth farm- if folks can find it and pedal up it in their lowest gear and not give up. If they go in the back yard- they may find an ax by a stack of wood. The should assess if their heart is pure and start chopping wood. If there a lucky and I am home- the rhythmic sound of chopping wood may encourage me to come out onto my screened deck. It is at this time folks may approach and ask me a question and then, then maybe, I may bless them w/ knowledge (er, offering to buy some used parts also helps)...

Namaste,

[heidi]

Based on my experience...
My very first ride was with a girlfriend who had been riding with a couple other girlfriends for just a few weeks. They (and I) started at Gambrill, on the yellow trail. Can you believe that? :confused: The reason they started there is because some guys said they should not start there, so naturally, they felt challenged.

I hated it! I had an old, cheap dual suspension bike, that sucked. I was totally out of shape. I had never ridden on rocky trails, and had trouble controlling the bike. We rode for appoximately 1.5 hrs.

But, my friend went at MY pace...never complaining about anything, and willing to turn back or change course whenever I needed to. We didn't change course. I struggled through it.

We continued to ride Gambrill, and I continued to hate it...but I improved in my bike control abilities. And it took surprisingly little time to see that improvement.

We are a group of 4 women + one guy, and we now ride the shed, Schaeffer, and Gambrill mostly...but have ridden Black Hill and Greenbrier.

We now all have newer bikes, and most have clipless pedals...all to add a new level of complexity to riding. We have all improved world's over when we started. As a group, we are very supportive of each other.

So this long post was written to state that IMO and experience, it's the teacher/ride leader that can make or break a newbie's desire to continue riding. That person should have incredible patience, and let the newbie dictate the entire ride. Never goad a newbie to do something they're not ready to do.

Also, newbies don't know the trails. Who wants to ride blindly, not know what the terrain is like or how long the trail is?

By the way, we started this riding mid last summer, 2005! :D

[Jackson]

Based on my experience...
My very first ride was with a girlfriend who had been riding with a couple other girlfriends for just a few weeks. They (and I) started at Gambrill, on the yellow trail. Can you believe that? :confused: The reason they started there is because some guys said they should not start there, so naturally, they felt challenged.


Sounds like something I would do - maybe men and women aren't so different when it comes to mountain biking after all.

- Tom

[Jack Sparrow]

This isn't about "women" but because I had the discussion yesterday and it covers newbies and mountain biking, I'm gonna tell the story here, anyway.

A guy at work asked if I had plans this weekend. We talked about mtbing. He said he tried it once, but it wasn't for him. He was at a ski resort and did a downhill run over rocky terrain.

Don't do that! He was turned off to mtbing. I told him that was like learning to fly, but instead of starting in a Cessna, he started in a 747.

Hi, ladies!

Oooh, too bad that guy's first mountain bike ride was downhilling. How did he get talked into that?! :(

Downhilling was my sixth or seventh ride (the other rides were at Wakefield), and it was still daunting as all get-out. (I wrote about it in the March issue of Spokes Magazine, if anyone read the article (http://conversationswithmud.blogspot.com/2006/02/hot-off-press-preventing-death-by.html).) But it worked for me because I always thought mountain biking was riding a bike fast down a mountain.

I'm a chick by the way. I've been using the pen name "Jack Sparrow" online for years now so that guys would be less likely to get all worked up about a female on a mtb. forum. :)

***

Anyways, it's nice to see a women's forum on here! Howdy!

[shannon]

My lack of attention might have something to do with the fact that DaveG was off in Fruita / Moab last week riding, so I was a single mom for the week. ;)

So, I read thru the why don't women ride thread, and shouted an Amen when SnotRocket said it's best to start beginners on pavement, not dirt. I didn't get truly comfortable mountain biking until I was a fairly proficient roadie. The additional fitness was vastly helpful, too. At least try a tow path first, just to see how wobbly they are before you take them someplace with rocks. FWIW, I started mountain biking before DaveG did, but he got serious about it while I was still in my fall over and cry stage.

To the woman who said men MTB because they are stronger: power-to-weight ratio is important for climbing speed, but strength by itself isn't that important. I can actually out-climb a number of my riding buddies, almost all of whom are men. There is no doubt that being able to middle-ring a big climb is a speed advantage, but whatever, you'll still make it to the top in your small ring, and maybe they'll stiffen up waiting for you, eh? For sure it is not the deciding factor.

I'm sure that lots of women aren't used to sports where bruises and scrapes are the norm and are turned off by it. Me, I'm an ex-rugby player, so that was not an issue. Get them armor early if they seem tense about it - that's a huge stress-reliever.

Give me a few years and I'll have little Miss N out riding - that'll be one more female on the trails!

Any wimmens wanting a women's ride at Gambrill or the 'Shed gimme a holler and I'll see what I can do to get some babysitting, or make DaveG stay home with little Miss N.

[Mrs. Outlaw]

Any wimmens wanting a women's ride at Gambrill or the 'Shed gimme a holler and I'll see what I can do to get some babysitting, or make DaveG stay home with little Miss N.

Hey Shannon, there a Ride Like a Girl ride at the Shed next Saturday, 05/13! That should give you plenty of time to make your babysitting arrangements. Hope to see you there!

Julie

[shannon]

Hey Shannon, there a Ride Like a Girl ride at the Shed next Saturday, 05/13! That should give you plenty of time to make your babysitting arrangements. Hope to see you there!

Julie

I'll be there, DaveG's got baby-duty! :D

[DaveG]

I'll be there, DaveG's got baby-duty! :D


You can get away w/ duct taping her to the seatpost. Just make sure not to wreck...