Changes at Patapsco!

[BikerMiker]

Many of us have grown accustomed to riding the jump trail (aka Lewis and Clarke) over by Landing Rd. In the near future, this will be plowed under. Get your runs in now before it's too late.

I met with the trail care crew out there and they mentioned the trails to me. The park manager Gary Burnett has asked them to 'remove' them as soon as possible. They are built on park land and are unauthorized trail construction.

I think everyone knows where I personally stand on this issue and I have asked the park not only to reconsider but to look for alternatives to simply plowing it under. There is very little actual construction, it's mostly just downed trees and dirt. Good dirt, I might add.

I have been trying to find a way to engage the Ewoks responsible for building this stuff but no one will tell me who it is. I'm not sure why.

If we could bring that person to the park and have a good dialogue about the needs of different users, we would have a much better chance to get some official dirtjump or stunt area in the park. The trail crew is all for it.

So, if you have any questions or input, post away. I don't see any way that we can stop the destruction but I'll keep working on the channels that I have access to.

If you know who built these, please let me know. I'm not trying to bust anyone. I've been riding out there a bunch. I just need to open up a dialogue here.

So, there you go.

Mike
post away!

[redneckp3ngu1n]

have you tried a forum petition?

[spa69]

willing to help do what is necessary to keep trail,let me known how i can help . shawn 301 367 0699

[BikerMiker]

Trailwork on April 9, avalon pavillions 9:30am.

mike

[langer]

i've run into a couple freeride guys there who built some of the stunts...but some of the newer ones like the stream gap jump are a mystery to most everyone, or at least that's what they say.
-jon

[urbaindk]

Any indication of a date and or time this will happen? A public display of protest might be nice. Even if they still dozed the jumps it might be a nice show of soliarity and disapproval in a publically visible way. Call in the media. Whatever.

I didn't even know there were jumps there and pisses me off.

[riderx]

Even if they still dozed the jumps it might be a nice show of soliarity and disapproval in a publically visible way. Call in the media. Whatever.
I'd say that is a BAD idea. It's taken a long time for MTBers to build a good relationship with the park, something like that (in my opinion) would set things back. But what do I know, I've only worked with trail crew for the past several years...

[urbaindk]

I'd say that is a BAD idea. It's taken a long time for MTBers to build a good relationship with the park, something like that (in my opinion) would set things back. But what do I know, I've only worked with trail crew for the past several years...


Well what about letter writing and phone calls? Why does everything have to go through "official channels".

These problems keep popping up. Clearly somebodies needs aren't being met. If "official channels" are the only way to get anything done, then the only finger of blame anybody can point here is back at MORE for not recognizing that the sport of mountain bike is a rapidly evolving entity. If MORE is by default the voice of mountain biking in the area then they needed to pay more attention to *all* styles of riding. It's probably too late now but if somebody could have recognized this 5 years ago or so I doubt we'd be having these problems now.

[riderx]

Well what about letter writing and phone calls? Why does everything have to go through "official channels".

These problems keep popping up. Clearly somebodies needs aren't being met. If "official channels" are the only way to get anything done, then the only finger of blame anybody can point here is back at MORE for not recognizing that the sport of mountain bike is a rapidly evolving entity. If MORE is by default the voice of mountain biking in the area then they needed to pay more attention to *all* styles of riding. It's probably too late now but if somebody could have recognized this 5 years ago or so I doubt we'd be having these problems now.
Nothing has to go through "official channels", you can write all the letters you want and make all of the phone calls you want. I'm just saying you'll probably do more harm than good. If it backfires are you willing to stand up before your fellow MTBers and say "Hey, I'm the guy who screwed our trail access"?

You really need to get a clue. Not too many years ago they wanted to shut mountain bikes out of Patapsco COMPLETELY. If it wasn't for groups like MORE you wouldn't even be able to legally ride there. How's that for being short sighted?

Maybe if 5 years ago YOU had been out there on trail work days and building relationships with the park we wouldn't be were we are today.

It's better to be proactive than reactive. Think about it.

The real problem is people who are building illegal stuff don't use an ounce of common sense and locate it in the middle of nowhere.

That's all I'm going to say about it because it's been rehashed here over and over again.

[urbaindk]

Sorry, I didn't live here 5 years ago and do not fully understand the history of MTBing at Patapsco. Thank you for giving me a clue. Seriously that does help me out a little.

But regarding your last statement:

The real problem is people who are building illegal stuff don't use an ounce of common sense and locate it in the middle of nowhere.

So if the unsanctioned builders built it in the middle of nowhere that would be OK? Isn't it just a matter of time before the middle of nowhere becomes the middle of somewhere and this whole process starts again :confused:

[riderx]

So if the unsanctioned builders built it in the middle of nowhere that would be OK? Isn't it just a matter of time before the middle of nowhere becomes the middle of somewhere and this whole process starts again :confused:I'm not saying that building illegal trails in the middle of no where is OK, obviously the park doesn't want that done at all and I'm not the guy who can authorize it. What I am saying is that if you are building illegal trails it would be far wiser to locate them in the middle of nowhere so they are out of sight in an area that does not see other users. And yes, the middle of nowhere will someday no longer be "out there". That is part of the problem and one of the reasons these trails are under scrutiny: you have an exploding suburban area with trail users of all types that is overloading Avalon. When I started riding out there 15 years ago I rarely saw a single user; no bikers, no hikers, no equestrians.

Don't get me wrong, I like those trails and they are fairly well constructed but they were located in the worst possible place: in the area of Patapsco that sees the heaviest use, next to one of the most used trail access areas which happens to be next to a busy road and across from a big neighborhood. The first time I saw them I knew their life span would be short.

It's my opinion that there are far bigger battles to fight and the risk vs. reward for this little set of trails isn't worth it.

[bikerRob]

3/31/06 >> OMG! unauthorized trails near Landing Rd. %$#@...who are these people and what were they thinking...%$#@$%. I guess it's been a while since I last rode cause I've never seen anything illegal there but then again I usually stay to the main trails. What RiderX said about screwing things up for everybody is absolutely true. We (MORE) don't need this kind of thing going on at Patapsco. I would hate to hear that MORE lost privileges at Avalon because of illegal trail building...don't believe it can't happen... :mad:

[urbaindk]

Don't get me wrong, I like those trails and they are fairly well constructed but they were located in the worst possible place: in the area of Patapsco that sees the heaviest use, next to one of the most used trail access areas which happens to be next to a busy road and across from a big neighborhood. The first time I saw them I knew their life span would be short.
.

I have to agree. That has to be one of the dumbest of all possible places to build an unauthorized trail.

[cbass]

I guess you could say that the location will provide easy access for an ambulance when somebody stacks it hard on the creek gap jump. The trails are fun, but I'm surprised they've lasted this long. The stunts have multiplied like rabbits as has the number of riders playing on them. Maybe the Park let them slide when they were fewer in number and not as well known?

I like the idea of having a section designated for well constructed stunts and jumps and maybe there's a way to have it sanctioned by the Park. Perhaps some of the freeriders and trail builders could volunteer to liaise with the Park and work something out? There's precedent for this working. Check with the IMBA.

[BikerMiker]

You are missing the point. The 'proper channels' aren't MORE, they are the park. If you aren't working with the park and volunteering which allows you to open up a dialogue, then you don't really have a voice. It's that simple. Instead of some protest, how about SHOWING UP FOR TRAILWORK.

Whoa. Crazy idea.

I've been running the MORE side of things for Patapsco since, uh, 1999? 2000 maybe? Whatever, the point is that the sport is evolving but we have had doule-jumps out there since the 1980s. I don't expect you to remember that as the sport 'evolving' just means more mountain biking. I don't draw a line between freeriders, xc'ers, roadies or whatever so don't do it to yourself.

This is mountain biking. Also knows as 'put up or shut up.'

mike
putting up.

[old_bashturd]

This trail appeared in the fall of last year. 1st time I rode I knew it would not be there long. It is a fun trail, love the jumps, but bottom line, it was built without the knowledge or permission of park personel. When it 1st appeared, it emptied out right on Landing Road accross from the new houses. My guess is kids living in the neighborhood stated the construction, then others have added to it. Where the trail intersects into the legal trail accross Norris Lane, there was another illegal trail that was closed about 4-5 years ago by the park. No jumps, but the trailhead was in the same location. We all have to be adults about illegal trail building, whether they're great trails like this one, or the shorter ride arounds that seem to appear all the time. Like others have said here, our access is tenuous. We need to not only follow the rules, but insure others follow the rules too.

[evolutionbike]

The guys name is Walt he is a good guy and truly means no harm through his actions he built these things to have a little bit more fun on. i am not sure of his last name but you may ask Adam Stewart he may know his full name. I hope this helps.

[wayfarer2900]

I rode the jump trail last weekend and this weekend and I don't see why it shouldn't stay put. There are alternate lines for anyone who doesn't wanna take a jump. Plus it's the one real spot in the park that gives freeriders their opportunity to put their friggin-huge bikes to use. My voice is here if it's needed!

Jonah

[pirate]

Here is another point of view... Having ridden this trail this past weekend, and being a firefighter, I couldn't help but think that it was a good thing the trail was close to the road. If someone needed to be rescued from there, it wouldn't be all that bad. If the jumps were five miles in, it might be a different story.
I realize that it doesn't really matter in this situation, since the trail will be gone soon. But in the future, if a freeride trails ARE built legally in the park, rescuer access should definitely be considered.

[BikerMiker]

You guys have great points and I need help making them. I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, so to speak, on this so any help you can provide by showing up at the trailwork day so you can meet the trailwork crew (and me) so we can start finding solutions for this type of riding.

mike
see you there...

[urbaindk]

You guys have great points and I need help making them. I'm a lone voice in the wilderness, so to speak, on this so any help you can provide by showing up at the trailwork day so you can meet the trailwork crew (and me) so we can start finding solutions for this type of riding.

mike
see you there...


Mike,

Maybe I said this in another thread and came across too confrontationally or failed to make the appropriate point, so I will restate it more civilaly now.

I don't think that coming to a trail work day so "we can meet and start finding solutions together" is a good idea. Work days are busy enough as it is any they should be devoted to as giving much actual physical labor as possible given the short amount of time and manpower available. Either trail work or the important discussions will be neglected (and I'm guessing it will be the discussion...) and we will not move forward. You are naive to think otherwise.

I propose that we (the royal we) have some sort of open discussion. Either through a some sort of face to face group meeting separate from a work day or through a series of posts on MORE's new Freeride board.

Dave / urbaindk.

[BIKEXC]

I am a Mt Biker and have ridden this trail.

I have never shown up for a trail maintenance day, but it seems that the park does a good job at compromising. I think the idea is to preserve the enviroment as much as possible and the parks history while at the same time allowing people to use the park for recreational use and enjoy it. I think the park tries close a trail when it creates a new one, which is a good idea. This trail isnt a need that the park should meet. I dont think that anyone would care if the jumps and logs were on existing trails, because they already are and have existed for years.

People can go to the severn danza park in severn if they are interested in dirt jumping. Or maybe if someone in the area has some land and a similar interest would be willing to allow people to use it. When I lived in Jersey, there were many places like this. I doesnt require a large area and I know a few people who have done this for motor bikes in the area.

I just think parks exist for reasons like this and know what is best for the park. And i appreciate being able to ride at such a great place so close to home.

[BikerMiker]

I'm glad that you are such an expert on what goes on at a trailwork day. We'll just have to consider you out of the loop so I don't want to hear any complaining.

Again, the only way to be involved is to GET INVOLVED. You can think that it won't help, but I'll have to admit that I'm a little more knowledgeable about trailwork days so if you get out there, it will be worth your while.

mike
open-ended discussion vs. rubber on the road

[pirate]

Hey Mike... I'm not trying to be a smartass here. But what kind of stuff DOES go on at a trailwork day. I have not been either, but I am going to try to make the next one. I'm Just curious what kind of stuff gets done out there.

[urbaindk]

I'm glad that you are such an expert on what goes on at a trailwork day. We'll just have to consider you out of the loop so I don't want to hear any complaining.

Again, the only way to be involved is to GET INVOLVED. You can think that it won't help, but I'll have to admit that I'm a little more knowledgeable about trailwork days so if you get out there, it will be worth your while.

mike
open-ended discussion vs. rubber on the road


Mike,

In my experience, work days are fairly well organized long before the workers actually show up, sometimes months in advance. Usually there is a list of priority hot spots, specific relocations, specific areas for trail maintenance, etc which have to be attended to first before the lower priority stuff can be done. Sort of trail maintenance triage. Is that not always the case? I'm sure there is some time in there to talk about other stuff. You can't work nonstop...

I was merely proposing a meeting separate from a workday on which to discuss ideas and to maximize the amount of time spent actually working on the trails on the work day. I thought it might also be a good idea to talk about it on this message board. Here we might mention specific areas and features on which to work. It might be easier than actually planning a meeting. I think this is probably the best approach to ensure that your volunteers feel like their time is well spent. If we were to stand around in the parking lot discussing all the stuff that needs to be discussed there'd be a bunch of people standing around waiting to go out and work.

By open ended, I didn't mean ad nosium interweb ranting. I'm trying to think constructively. More what I had in mind was some thing along the lines of the following.

Real example Patapsco inserted here: You know the offshoot trail that drops in from the left off the "Buzzard Rock Trail" in North west end of the park? It's a great trail, one of the steepest descents in the park and actually has some decent sized drops on it. It's getting really rutted out in sections. If it stays like that much longer I'm sure it will need to be closed. It sure would be nice if we could pave in some of the rutted sections as is shown on the following website: http://www.dupontforest.com/trailproject.asp This would allow water to run off the trail more effectively and would keep the trail open in the future.

This is not the kind of trail work that we can just show up on a given Saturday morning and propose to do that day. First of all logisitally speaking you'd be meeting at one end of the park and would have to move all your workers and tools to the other end of the park. Secondly, it would require significant prep work, quarrying and moving rocks, finding the logs for deadheading, etc. The trail would also have to be closed so nobody came riding up on us. The list goes on.

That's the kind of discussion I am talking about. But whatever, you are the expert.

[BikerMiker]

Actually, yeah, I am one of the experts around here on trailwork stuff. I've been to classes, read books (IMBA, SCA, etc) and have been 'practicing' trailwork stuff for longer than it took for me to graduate college. I'm as close as any non-full timer can get, I have to say.

When I run trailwork, I have a group that meets, we shuttle (or walk) to the trail that we are working on and talk about what we are going to do. Out of respect for anyone who shows up, we talk about what we are looking at, why we are working here, what we hope to accomplish and look at any obvious alternatives that meet with the goal of the day. It's not slave labor, it's all for people to come out and learn something. I try to spend at least a few minutes talking with everyone and answering any questions that I can.

I have a buddy who used to do on-site water stuff permitting for St Mary's County. One ride from him and I learned a ton about stream bed degredation, flow management, crossings... it was rad and I didn't even ask.

I haven't been to other trailwork days since Rich was here and he let me run the Ditch Witch (which I would be really dangerous with) in Rosaryville so I don't know how others run their workdays.

Eric Crawford (MAMBO-guy, ask him to dance) and I have worked together out there with Joe (Singlespeedoutlaw) and Jeff from BikeDr for a long time. There is a ton of living trail experience whenever we get together and you would learn something. Hell, most of the liaisons would learn something, I would bet. Between the four of us, we ride fixed gear, singlespeed, long travel, short travel, hardtail, 29'er, 'cross and rigid bikes out there so we know how different trails ride in different directions for different users. We've probably got 50+ years of trail riding experience to go in to our work out there. So, yeah, you can call us experts...

Sounding like a broken record here... If you show up and it's a waste of your time and you don't learn anything, I'll give you $20. On the spot. No bs.

mike
money = mouth

[riderx]

I was merely proposing a meeting separate from a workday on which to discuss ideas and to maximize the amount of time spent actually working on the trails on the work day. I thought it might also be a good idea to talk about it on this message board. Here we might mention specific areas and features on which to work. It might be easier than actually planning a meeting. I think this is probably the best approach to ensure that your volunteers feel like their time is well spent. If we were to stand around in the parking lot discussing all the stuff that needs to be discussed there'd be a bunch of people standing around waiting to go out and work.
Both work and discussion can and does happen at the trail days. Show up a bit early and your aren't cutting into work time. Or stay afterwards, there's usually a ride that happens too. Back and forth via text on the web can be useful but can also be misconstued or time consuming and not always the most effective communication. A combo of discussion here and in person can probably be most useful. Also, the Patapsco trail crew will be at the work day and things you may spend hours hashing out here become null and void talking to them for five minutes (for instance, they already are planning on addressing a problem area that you've spent days discussing here).

I won't be at this week's work day but will be at the next and am more than willing to talk trail work.

Sometimes things are planned far in advance, other times only weeks. It depends on the situation, the trail crew, their bosses, what we want to do, etc., etc.

A seperate meeting, while great, is another thing for people to squeeze into an already busy schedule. At trail day you are killing two birds w/ one stone (or three since you get to ride too).

[riderx]

Hey Mike... I'm not trying to be a smartass here. But what kind of stuff DOES go on at a trailwork day. I have not been either, but I am going to try to make the next one. I'm Just curious what kind of stuff gets done out there.Sometimes you are building new trail, other times you are repairing existing trail, sometimes re-routing problem areas so they are more sustainable, some days all of the above and more. The group of us that works at Patapsco year after year have a running list of areas we want to address. Then the trail crew has their projects that we help with. We could have a dozen work days a year and still not get to everything, even if problems didn't continue to crop up.

Expect to get dirty, dig, rake, haul logs and dirt and get a better understanding of trail building technics.

[RetroG]

Business before pleasure.

I recall building about 1/2 mile of sweet trail on the SE end of Morning Choice a few years ago with Mike and Co. Probably about 20 people and it only took us half a day, 4-5 hours. Sheer manpower. Then, we had a cookout, a few beers and hit the trails. It was my first trailwork experience and a very good one at that.

[BikerMiker]

We should do that again at the May work day. We haven't done a picnic thing in a while.

mike
hmmmmmmm

[spa69]

will be there and bringing friends

[BikerMiker]

Ho Lee Sheet! I walked the new trail that we are building yesterday and it is RAD! We'll have a nice TTF going in.

This will be the one to attend, for sure. You big boys and girls should bring the bikes for the post-ride launch. (Not lunch). This will be fun.

mike

[shadowstone]

Where is this new trail? I take it's at Patapsco??? And excuse my ignorance... but what is a TTF?

I'll try to make the work day if I don't get called into work. :mad: I'm on call this whole weekend :( .

Rob

[werace424]

Where is this new trail? I take it's at Patapsco??? And excuse my ignorance... but what is a TTF?

I'll try to make the work day if I don't get called into work. :mad: I'm on call this whole weekend :( .

Rob


Isn't ignorance bliss? :cool: I just learned this about a month ago so let me share my wealth of knowledge with you... ;) A TTF is a Technical Terrain Feature. Mostly the stuff I cannot ride yet. :p But the more there are the more we can practice.

Peace and Wipeout Grease!

Paul

[shadowstone]

Isn't ignorance bliss? :cool: I just learned this about a month ago so let me share my wealth of knowledge with you... ;) A TTF is a Technical Terrain Feature. Mostly the stuff I cannot ride yet. :p But the more there are the more we can practice.

Peace and Wipeout Grease!

Paul
Hey thanks, who would have guess. All this fancy language for riding a bike in the woods. I guess you have to call them something.

Your right, I need all the practice I can get. :eek:

[dcraider]

Isn't ignorance bliss? :cool: I just learned this about a month ago so let me share my wealth of knowledge with you... ;) A TTF is a Technical Terrain Feature. Mostly the stuff I cannot ride yet. :p But the more there are the more we can practice.

Peace and Wipeout Grease!

Paul


I thought TTF was Technical Trail Feature. Ahh who cares we still know what the acronym represents why do we need to know the exact wording.

[BikerMiker]

Whatever you want to call it, it's done! We had a great day in the woods. I managed to ride the new trail and clean it in both directions... in me Carhartt's no less!

There's a new option on the ridge trail with a 4' log in it that is ramped. It's super-clean right now and we need to figure out the approach for more speed to try and launch it, but it's there and it's rad. Lots of work, but worth it.

mike
a month before another workday.

[GBone]

There is a "rumor" floating around the park that MORE is going to nueter the loop that has become known as Lewis and Clark? I sincerely hope this is not true as this is the only area in the park that I have found that allows those interested in honing critical bike handling skills other than lap times to do so.

Whoever built that stuff has been mindful not to destroy anything in the park, and has done a hell of a good job managing drainage - driest place in the park after a rain.

Not sure who makes these decisions within MORE, however If there is any truth in this rumor you are going to disapoint MORE people than you would imagine.

Please set the record straight for everyone please.

Thank you.

[redneckp3ngu1n]

its not MORE's descion. Its the park service's MORE is trying to keep the loop open

[GBone]

So is it staying or going?

[riderx]

So is it staying or going?Read the entire thread, it's got all the info.