Conway Robinson Freeriding

[firedog]

Ok I'm not what you would consider a hard core free rider, so for those of you that are I have a simple (or not so simple) question for you. If you could build a freeride trail in a park that is generally flat to rolling hills what type of TTFs would you like to see? I'm trying to revive the Conway Robinson Park freeride initiative and see if we can get some legal stuff in that park. If you got any ideas, pictures or links to web sites that have stuff that you like, give it a shot.

Chris B.

[Squirrel Girl]

Hi, I'm the liaison between MORE and the Va Dept of Forestry for Conway Robinson State Forest. I've talked with some of the freeriders regarding Technical Trail Features (TTFs) proposed for ConRob. There's a VERY long history to this subject. It's too much to type up here. So to summarize:

MORE supports, in fact ENCOURAGES, freeriders to submit a proposal to the DoF to build TTFs at Conway Robinson. However, before any work can be done, the DoF must pass off on the proposal. They have said, "No dimensional lumber." They are the land managers, and in all cases, MORE will support the land manager's decision.

However, there are ways to work within the rules and bend them to your advantage. You guys need to put together a plan. I have repeatedly offered to help you. I can take your sketches and photographs and put them into a slick pdf, ppt, or whatever style for presentation to the DoF.

You don't want me creating the plan. I can't ride the features, and I wouldn't be any good at designing them. But I can help get the proposal going.

Please do not build illegally.

My hands are feeling better after surgery, and I might be able to do a little more typing these days. So either write me, Barbara am Ende, at helictite .aT> deepcaves _dot net or call at (703) 909-6550.

I will be sending a copy of this message to those of you whose email addresses I have.

[themonkeyman]

An easy but super fun and technical TTF that is relatively easy to build is a skinny. They don't have to be very high (around 2 feet is fine, high enough to make it fun, but low enough that falling isn't dangerous.) Having it on a downhill slope is easier, as you don't need to pedal while on it, just modulate the brakes, but one on level ground is just as fun (if not more!:))

I've done on that was about 5-6 inches wide, and it was a blast. It was very (for lack of a better word) technical. It took me about 4 tries to make it the entire length, and it was only about 30 feet long.

If you like, I can draw up a schematic of some plans for one (the one I referred to was a temp. one I built in the yard ;)) Just let me know and I can make them.

Quick question: What does the county/park authority mean by " no dimensional lumber"? Like no milled lumber? Only natural logs? Please clarify.

Really hope to see it built!--Graham

P.S. Ladder bridges are also an option, but they take more wood to build. I could get plans for them as well...

[Squirrel Girl]

Hi Monkeyman,

The unapproved TTFs that were built out there were with 2x4 type lumber. That was a no-go. Ladders built that way were not in the concept of what the Dept of Forestry wanted to see at Conway Robinson.

I think they are much more amenable to working with deadfall. Some of which rots easily, but some is pretty durable for quite a few years. Local rock can be used. There could be potentially some weathered wood used in the TTFs, but I would recommend it be a minor component.

I would expect that what would be best is to have drawings of what is proposed, and photographs of a TTF that was built somewhere else to show what it would actually look like.

Rather than give a generic sketch, I would recommend getting out to ConRob. Find some suitable deadfall or rocks and come up with specific designs and show where, exactly, you propose to do what. There's an area in the NE of the Forest that's behind some trees knocked over by Hurricane Isabel that would be ideal to use. Even there, dimensional lumber is frowned upon. But it's in an area that is away from use by other Forest users, so in that way, you could make your own little playground. The former Forester, now retired, conceptually OKed the use of that area. No guarantees with the new Forester, but I'll bet if you come up with plans that are reasonable, there's a good chance it'll get approved.

I suggest you get with Jason R who posted on the recent ConRob threads. He's got some carpentry skills going, plus I think he understands a little about dealing with bureaucracy.

PS, PM me your email address so I can put you on into my Address Book. I've got a group called "CR Freeriders." I'll get you in there.

Good luck! Let me know if I can help,
Barbara

[love2climb]

Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering how to get to this locale? I fly fish on the Robinson and Conway rivers all the time but they are in Shenandoah which is a no go with biking so I assume this is somewhere completely different? I'm not a freerider, but I'm into All Mountain/XC and love natural ttfs out on rides. It would be nice to go somewhere from time to time to play around and learn more balancing and handling skills to take back to the trails. I've got a few ttfs close by my home, but we have an issue with local BMX riders (generally local kids and not true BMX'ers) constantly modifying the ttfs for their style. They typically rip out the rock gardens, log crossings, and log pile lips on some of the little kickers. My view is if you can't ride it, don't mess it up for the rest who can and want to. Move on to something that you do feel comfortable with. Have respect for your fellow riders. In turn, they will respect you and we will present a much more acceptable package to the people scrutinizing us. I certainly wouldn't mind helping to come up with some draft idea's to present to DoF for naturalized ttfs as well.

[Squirrel Girl]

I've never heard of the Robinson or Conway Rivers. It turns out that "Conway Robinson" was a PERSON who lived during the 19th century. His daughter gave the land to the Commonwealth of Virginia after his death.

Right now there isn't much in the way of TTFs. Just a very few. That little patch of 400+ acres gets a moderate amount of use by equestrians and dog walkers, as well as other users, so besides one little side area that might be dedicated to freeriding, for the most part, the TTFs can't "block" the trail for all the other users. However, there's room on the sides of the trails in a lot of places, plus there's that one area.

Anyway, the location is on the NE side of Gainesville, VA just off I-66. Go to the "Where to Ride" part of the MORE forum and there will be a link for ConRob (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1196). It's about a 1/4 east of I-66 on US 29, on the north side of the road. Right now there's construction, and the crossover for the divided highway is closed and you'll have to go to the next crossover and double back.

[love2climb]

Okay, so it seems as though maybe my local rides are more built up for ttf practice. I'd be glad to help MORE with developing ideas and building up and ConRob if a trail day or the likes is ever set up.

[firedog]

Can we get back on track to the original purpose of this post please. Right now we are trying to find out what kind of TTFs everyone likes. How they will be constructed can be figured out later. So does anyone else have any good ideas?

I see that Barbara the MORE Liaison at Conway Robinson State Forest has piped in with some of the problems that have come up in the park in the past. Learning from the problems of the past is the whole reason we are trying to do everything in an approved fashion this time around. Conway Robinson State Forest is being managed as a primitive nature park. As such they don't want 2x4 type lumber used. We can work around this by using rough cut lumber, downed trees, rocks and dirt.

Thanks Monkeyman thats exactly the ideas I was hoping for. Skinnys and ladder bridges will work. As far as the amount of wood the TTFs will take, that need can be taken care of by using the downed trees in the park.

Hi Love2climb the TTFs that we would like to see out at Conway would have different features for people of different skill levels. We can also add rock gardens, log crossings, and log piles to the mix. IMBA standards will be used to construct them and it would be left up to the riders common sense not to get in over their head.

Any more ideas?
Thanks
Chris B.

[themonkeyman]

SquirrelGirl,

My email is liquidman89@juno.com, thanks for adding me to the list.

I find that odd the the Forest service doesn't allow milled lumber. I'll have to take your advice and try to get up to CR. If I can see the area you're talking about, I can def. draw up some sweet features to build.

What types of trees are the fallen logs you mentioned? If they're pine, I'd reccomend against using it, and maybe approaching the Forest Service about lumber (as you probably know, pine rots fast and isn't very strong.)

For Conway, I would suggest something like this (since we're not allowed to use lumber):
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/images/long_logride.jpg

Something like that can be acheived pretty easily with a chainsaw, then all that's left to build is on- and off-ramps. If several trees fall on top of one another, linking several log rides can bring some really fun and technical aspects to the feature.

I'll try to get up there, or if anybody is going out soon, pictures of the aforementioned area would be great. Then we can get to work planning this out before I manage to get myself out there.

Thanks--Graham

[Squirrel Girl]

Thanks Graham,

I think there's no problem with what you show in that picture. Mark E and Damien C made a really nice version of that with some elegant tread in one tree out there already. Click HERE (http://www.conwayrobinson.org/plans/TTF_model3.pdf) for a "plan" I drafted up to demonstrate to the DoF what I think looks good.

There is some pine out there, and yes, it does rot quickly. Not the best to use, but when it's in good shape, you might use it anyway for simple things.

I was told once that the Forest is too small for commercial operations. So I think that we don't have too much to worry about on that front. They're wanting to use it as an educational location. ConRob is number 3 on their list for education, whatever that means.

[themonkeyman]

Barbara,

That looks like a very slick presentation. Also, the Logride looks great, I can;t find anything the county(or who-ever runs the park) would have a beef with. When was that built? When presenting to the county you could mention how long it's been there to show how long it will last. that looks like a fallen Oak they used, so it will definitely last a good long time (those Oaks take several years to rot to the point of being unsound.) I've downloaded the map of ConRob, and Is the area that you talked about in the NE section of the "Pines?" I have the map with the grid marked on it, if that helps.

Also, for presenting plans to the forest servie to get the OK, these IMBA pages may help:
Wooden Structure Guidelines (http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/wood_guidelines.html)
Building Ladder Bridges (http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/ladder_bridge.html)
Blending In (http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/ewok_trails.html)
Log Ride Guide (http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/logs_on_trails.html)

Hope those can be of use--Graham

[Squirrel Girl]

the Logride looks great, I can;t find anything the county(or who-ever runs the park) would have a beef with. When was that built?
.
.
I've downloaded the map of ConRob, and Is the area that you talked about in the NE section of the "Pines?" I have the map with the grid marked on it, if that helps.The location of that logride is G2 at the trail intersection. The little place that might be dedicated to a freeride area is I5 where there's that section of dead end road. Rich Edwards of IMBA considered using his trail building machine to turn that little piece of deadend doubletrack into a rhythm section, but then there was the unauthorized building, and everything went out the window.

Somebody look up the IMBA freeriding grant application date. Dan Hudson made an effort last year, but he was doing it on his own at the last minute. Thanks Dan! But Rich said they were getting 20 page full color applications, so we didn't have a chance. If you guys get your act together and put something decent in plan form, I'll help make it full color and glossy and maybe we can get some $$ to get Rich out for real instead of a few minutes he takes away from his paid work.

Barbara

[firedog]

Here are a few pictures of the area in question. As you can see last years weather was not to kind to that area of the forest. If we don't use the downed pine trees in some fashion we'll have a big job cleaning up the area.

[themonkeyman]

Thanks for the pics Firedog.

I suppose we can utilize the pines, but they won;t last too much longer than a year or so. :( Even if we don't use them a chainsaw makes pretty quick work of them. I'm gonna try to get out there sometime soon, but can't really say when.

--Graham

[firedog]

Thanks for the pics Firedog.

I suppose we can utilize the pines, but they won;t last too much longer than a year or so. :( Even if we don't use them a chainsaw makes pretty quick work of them. I'm gonna try to get out there sometime soon, but can't really say when.

--Graham

Hey Graham

I know the pines won't last very long but they maybe a start. Conway has a good system of fire roads in it that might be used to move suitable logs from one side of the park to the other. I'm willing to try that also (have truck will travel). Let me know when you might make it out to the park and I'll try to meet you out there. I have one of those crazy work schedules that makes meeting during the week or on the weekend possible.

see ya,
Chris B.

[vwmtnbiker]

well i have to interject here as to the life expectancy of those trees. while smaller ones may fatigue after a while, there are several that have been there for a year and a half now that are as sturdy as the day we found them. of course everyone knows in a perfect world we'd have a wealth of cedar trees to play with but unfortunately this is the middle east coast and not the north-west coast. i'd have to vote to just use whatcha got instead of doing nothing at all. if done properly they will last some time i think. and just to address the maintainence issue that im sure will pop up momentarily, ANYTHING will need attention. someone just has to be willing to do it and be diligent with it, not show up one day and the next week just write it off. anyway thats my 2 cents.

cheers

mark

edit: and barbara, not to be the sceptic but were there seriously plans to put dirt jumps back there? i cannot imagine that jumps would be approved before those skinnys, i mean seriously, what is more risky? riding a skinny thats 2 feet off the ground or hitting a double that may kick you 6 plus feet into the air where you must clear a gap to the landing. dont get me wrong, that would be an awesome addition but from a risk standpoint i'd have to say thats probably a little higher on the risky scale...anyway

cheers again

[urbaindk]

The rule of thumb is a year on the ground for pines. If they are elevated so that air can flow around them to keep them dry the will last longer. Peeling off the bark will help too. Those pictured in firedog's post would probably last awhile as they are pictured.

Cut them up and make a logstack out of them and all bets are off.

[Squirrel Girl]

edit: and barbara, not to be the sceptic but were there seriously plans to put dirt jumps back there? i cannot imagine that jumps would be approved before those skinnys, i mean seriously, what is more risky? riding a skinny thats 2 feet off the ground or hitting a double that may kick you 6 plus feet into the air where you must clear a gap to the landing. dont get me wrong, that would be an awesome addition but from a risk standpoint i'd have to say thats probably a little higher on the risky scale...anyway

cheers againIt was Rich Edwards' idea to put in a rhythm section with his trail building machine. I think he meant the sort of thing that is on the Wakefield powerline trail. That was what he suggested when we had that 5 hour rendevous a year or two ago. But then the troubles had to be dealt with. So nothing came of the idea. I don't think he had "jumps" exactly in mind. But maybe. You should ask him. You should have his email in what's gone around in recent days.

I've now completely forgotten what's been written here on the MORE site and what has gone by the way on the ConRob Freerider distribution emails. I don't have time to re-read them all to figure it out. But this is where finding out about the IMBA freerider grant would come in handy. We've been lucky that Rich has a personal interest in seeing something good (freerider good) happens at ConRob. He's got to be paid, and his interest is freelance. If we get him to come out and do real work, we've got to pay him. So an IMBA freerider grant would be SUPER in that regard.

I'm not entirely sure what sort of "risk" the DoF is comfortable with. My impression was that their objection to dimensional lumber has to do with aesthetics and other concepts of what they envision for compatible use in the Forest. I put a lot of trust and faith in Rich because he has had so much experience with land managers over the years.

[camp]

I'm not entirely sure what sort of "risk" the DoF is comfortable with.My impression is that the Forest doesn't even yet know that risk may be a part of this. They are certainly not in the recreation business. They're accustomed to the growing trees business.

[vwmtnbiker]

ok, so what is the status of the "project" as of late? i havent seen any email updates and i, personally, am rearing to go on this. i will take pictures, draw plans, procure materials, and pour my blood and sweat into this project. will anyone help me?!

m