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rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 01:31 PM
We've now been talking about this long enough so people know the deal.
Thought I'd get a head count of how many people believe we should change our name. By change, I mean total changes that would not sound anything like MORE or retaining the four letter acronym "MORE" and changing or dropping the words that comprise it.

If you believe the name is fine as is or it's not worth the hassle or the cost and confusion that goes along with the change, then give us a NO vote.

This is not an official call for vote, but a survey of opinion. If the decision is made to change it, then we can deal with what to change it to.

Thanks!

punga
November 17th, 2010, 01:36 PM
Who Hoa! First vote!

wrench177
November 17th, 2010, 01:40 PM
you need to stick this to the home page and leave it there for a few days. it'll get lost otherwise.

rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 01:43 PM
you need to stick this to the home page and leave it there for a few days. it'll get lost otherwise.

I put it in "Polls" so it will stay on that very special "Current Poll" area on the front page under the new posts until someone posts a new one. I know, no one's done that in years, so it's a bit unusual. :D

escatmore
November 17th, 2010, 01:52 PM
Like all polls I would like to cast my vote with a comment:

IF you change the name it needs to be to something that screams what it is we stand for. Like One Less Car changing their name to Bike Maryland. It says what they do. Changing our name to something will still have to explain loses my vote. I love the name MORE, but I understand and agree, it doesn't say what we are. I dislike ( I almost typed hate ) the idea of going with another acronym like MAMBO because we would still have to explain ourselves.

eric - former executive director of MAMBO among other annoying things...

TiRyder
November 17th, 2010, 02:16 PM
Like all polls I would like to cast my vote with a comment:

IF you change the name it needs to be to something that screams what it is we stand for. Like One Less Car changing their name to Bike Maryland. It says what they do. Changing our name to something will still have to explain loses my vote. I love the name MORE, but I understand and agree, it doesn't say what we are. I dislike ( I almost typed hate ) the idea of going with another acronym like MAMBO because we would still have to explain ourselves.

eric - former executive director of MAMBO among other annoying things...

DITTO

If changed, needs to be simple and preferably not an acronym. Maybe it forms an acronym that can be casually used by members and whatnot, but for all "official" communication and marketing should be spelled out, focused and accurate.

Eric Bike Maryland Example is perfect - simple, straight forward, and accurate.

Cjones
November 17th, 2010, 02:45 PM
My thoughts on the MORE name change...

We keep the word "more" but lose the acronym. This way we keep the name recognition but lose the confusing "off-road" part.

We're all over the place with location. VA, MD, DC, WV. Are we really Mid-Atlantic or DC area? The lose the location completely.

Add mountain bike to "more" by using the common abbreviation "mtb"

The name becomes MTB.MORE (we want to mountain bike more)

The tagline of the logo can be what is needed for that particular application. Mountain Bike More or Website or Riding Bikes & Building Trails or Mountain Bike Advocacy or whatever we need in the future.

The name has lots of flexibility. When we're talking to land managers we are "mountain bike more" (no confusion on who we are). When we're at the trailhead talking with fellow members were can keep calling ourselves "more" if we want. Or we can adapt to "mountain bike more". Doesn't matter either way.

MTB.MORE

kevin
November 17th, 2010, 02:51 PM
I voted "yes", but would like to add that I agree with Eric and others about the new name being something we don't have to explain. I'm still also a fan of dropping the acronym and going with something like "More Mountain Bike Advocacy".


Kevin

rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 03:12 PM
I voted "yes", but would like to add that I agree with Eric and others about the new name being something we don't have to explain. I'm still also a fan of dropping the acronym and going with something like "More Mountain Bike Advocacy".


Kevin

You voted correctly, then. This is a poll to see if you think we should make a change, even if that change is simply dropping the words "Mid-atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts". All comments about what that change, if any, should be are being captured and we'll factor it in when/if the decision is made to make the change.

Interestingly, for all the talk of the need for change, the numbers are pretty close.

jlc115
November 17th, 2010, 03:12 PM
me: Have you joined MORE?
them: more what??

:confused2:

philvw
November 17th, 2010, 03:25 PM
I voted 'yes' so that all my retro MORE jerseys will become instant collectors items, so I can finally get some trail cred, or sell them on eBay for a small fortune.

Actually, thats not why I voted yes at all. Its that whole explain thing.

And Maybe Jabs will actually join up again with 'Trail Cyclists of DMV' because it wont be MORE.

denisvtt
November 17th, 2010, 03:26 PM
Add mountain bike to "more" by using the common abbreviation "mtb"

The name becomes MTB.MORE (we want to mountain bike more)



FWIW, it may not take much change since the domain name is already MORE-MTB...

greenbean
November 17th, 2010, 03:55 PM
Agree with everyone so far. We need something simple that better reflects who we are and what we do.

However, I take the other side of the coin on the having to explain it issue. I find that "having" to explain it is really more like an opportunity to explain it. Sure, if you say "have you joined MORE?" you might get a blank stare in return. But if you open with the right question ("have you heard of MORE?"), you instantly have an opportunity to educate someone about who we are and what we do.

New name or not, we're more than just a local mountain biking club, so to truly do ourselves justice, we need to be seeking those opportunities to tell people about who we are and what we do.

I could go on and on, but I should probably get back to work...

greenbean
November 17th, 2010, 04:01 PM
I put it in "Polls" so it will stay on that very special "Current Poll" area on the front page under the new posts until someone posts a new one. I know, no one's done that in years, so it's a bit unusual. :D

Is there any way to move the "polls" area on the front page to a more prominent location? Or add a front page sticky to draw attention to it? It's kinda buried in it's current location, and visitors to the home page aren't going to see it unless they know to scroll waaaaaayyyy down to find it.

philvw
November 17th, 2010, 05:10 PM
However, I take the other side of the coin on the having to explain it issue. I find that "having" to explain it is really more like an opportunity to explain it.

Then you have probably never have worked a noisy room filled with 50-100 people of diverse nature, like land managers, hikers, equestrians, hunters, politicians, retail owners, adjacent homeowners etc etc. All with their own agenda.

Like a job interview, you only have 10 seconds to make a first impression, and in that 10 seconds you can barely stumble through the awkward "Mid Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts which-is-not-a-motorized-vehicle-club" thing. I've been doing this for 20 years now. I want something akin to "Bike Maryland"

Sure what youre talking about is chatting up another biker while you catch your breath on the trail. Thats easy.

jabberwocky
November 17th, 2010, 05:28 PM
I think its a bit silly. I think I was a member here for like 6 months before I even realized that MORE was an acronym. If the off-road part confuses people, why do we bring it up in meetings? If they say "who are you with", just say "MORE, a regional mountainbiking club". Boom, simple, to the point, they know who MORE is and you guys don't have to buy new stationary.

DKEG
November 17th, 2010, 05:38 PM
Person #1: who are you with?

Person #2: MORPGE

Person #1: What the hell does MORPGE Stand for?

Person #2: Mid Atlantic Off Road Pack Goat Enthusiasts, MORPGE for short. We used to be called The Goat Packers Assoc. but people always laughed for some reason.

Person #1: no wonder, both your names suck, you should change it again. Sounds like your going to bring a bunch of goats on the trail and mate with them.


BTW, I voted YES!

rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 05:58 PM
I think its a bit silly. I think I was a member here for like 6 months before I even realized that MORE was an acronym. If the off-road part confuses people, why do we bring it up in meetings? If they say "who are you with", just say "MORE, a regional mountainbiking club". Boom, simple, to the point, they know who MORE is and you guys don't have to buy new stationary.

Very true, and that's what we normally do. Who really wants to spit out the whole name, anyways? Not me. From my perspective it's a very infrequent set of circumstances that the current name really hurts.

1. Our official name is what appears in print, in articles, on grant applications, official documents and agreements with land managers, etc. When you're not in the room to explain who you really are, a grant app can look like a bunch of ATVers wanting to share some trail in an RPA. It's a quick trip to the discard pile.

2. Someone else introduces or calls you out/up in front of a big group. Has happened to me a few times. Look out across the faces and you see furrowed brows and clench fists - don't always have the time to explain the contradiction and how much you love nature so you can calm the nerves and reverse that first impression.

3. Then, of course, you get people who specifically ask you if MORE is an acronym and those times I've always been able to manage the conversation without issue but there have been times when it's a group of people - official govie types and volunteers from other user groups - with multiple conversations going on and you have to make sure no one is left with the wrong impression.

Sure, we can say sc&^% it and just walk away leaving them to think what they will, but a big part of this advocacy game is dealing more with perception than truth. This discussion isn't really about selling the club to your buddies (although that should be considered if/when we do work to come up with something new), but more of how we're represented to people who can make a difference in whether we get access or funding.

rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 06:01 PM
Mid Atlantic Off Road Pack Goat Enthusiasts

That would explain the smell...:cool:

mechman900
November 17th, 2010, 07:13 PM
How about something simple like "Beltway Mountain Bikers" (BMB)? Because if you live in VA or MD and you want to ride 1/2 the trails the club works with, chances are you'll be taking the beltway to get there. Also looking at this nice map (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=102379558849445312790.00000111 d80d843bb0e46&z=9&om=1) the trails are more or less centered around the beltway. I do know that the first time someone said Mid Atlantic Off Road Enthusists I thought for sure it was a jeep club.

Dr Phil mmkay
November 17th, 2010, 07:20 PM
How about "Nature And Mountain Bike Loving Advocates." Has a good ring to it.

punga
November 17th, 2010, 07:26 PM
How about "Nature And Mountain Bike Loving Advocates." Has a good ring to it.
Klassy.....:flushed:

tuba_transport
November 17th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Keep the name. It is the brand. The only time you change your name is if your brand it tainted by scandal.

MORE is the brand. MORE is successful. MORE is recognized.

Ever ask anyone what an IMBA is? Same reaction. How about and IBM? What is a CVS?

They are long standing brands.

DKEG
November 17th, 2010, 08:20 PM
Keep the name. It is the brand. The only time you change your name is if your brand it tainted by scandal.

MORE is the brand. MORE is successful. MORE is recognized.

Ever ask anyone what an IMBA is? Same reaction. How about and IBM? What is a CVS?

They are long standing brands.

IMBA= International Mountain Bike Assoc. = Oh, you are MTBers

MORE= Mid Atlantic Off road Enthusiasts = Oh, you drive 4X4's and ATV off road?

The name MORE is a marketing mistake, Your name should at least give people a hint of what you are about.

tuba_transport
November 17th, 2010, 08:48 PM
IMBA= International Mountain Bike Assoc. = Oh, you are MTBers

MORE= Mid Atlantic Off road Enthusiasts = Oh, you drive 4X4's and ATV off road?

The name MORE is a marketing mistake, Your name should at least give people a hint of what you are about.

As a tubist we have an organization that used to be called TUBA. Tubists Universal Brotherhood Association. It was an easy to remember acronym and catchy. Several people 30 years later decided they wanted to leave their mark and take ownership in a new name so they had a hubbub about the name because it did not seem academic enough the few said. They also argued it excluded women. The final argument was the name did not name the euphonium which this professional organization represented.

After some discussions those on the committee decided to rename the organization ITEA. International Tuba Euphonium Association. This name fell in line with some other instrumental organizations.

The results? I and many many others still call the group TUBA. ITEA is pronounced I T E A instead of an easy catchy word like MORE or TUBA. The stuffiness of the new name reflected the stuffiness of the committee members who felt it imperative to leave their mark.

The resulting name did absolutely ZERO in promoting the respectability of the instrument. The only impact was resentment by longtime members who appreciated the founding name, money wasted on rebranding material, confusion in assuring outside parties that the new name was not a new group but in fact the same group whose committee had an identity crisis. It was essentially a failure for everyone except the committee who came up with the name and patted each other on the backs.

So I have seen this before. This current discussion sounds surprisingly like deja vu.

punga
November 17th, 2010, 08:52 PM
Keep the name. It is the brand. The only time you change your name is if your brand it tainted by scandal.

MORE is the brand. MORE is successful. MORE is recognized.

Ever ask anyone what an IMBA is? Same reaction. How about and IBM? What is a CVS?

They are long standing brands.

Companies change names all the time without needing scandals:

Exxon = Esso
IBM = Computing Tabulating Recording Corporation
Datsun = Nissan

riderx
November 17th, 2010, 09:38 PM
Just like Kentucky Fried Chicken became KFC, I advocate Mid-Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts (a.k.a. MORE) become MORE Mountain Bike Advocacy. We retain the familiar MORE name while losing the negative and gaining something that explains what we do.

nocro
November 17th, 2010, 10:01 PM
We've now been talking about this long enough so people know the deal.
Thought I'd get a head count of how many people believe we should change our name. By change, I mean total changes that would not sound anything like MORE or retaining the four letter acronym "MORE" and changing or dropping the words that comprise it.

If you believe the name is fine as is or it's not worth the hassle or the cost and confusion that goes along with the change, then give us a NO vote.

This is not an official call for vote, but a survey of opinion. If the decision is made to change it, then we can deal with what to change it to.

Thanks!

Mid Atlantic Mountain Bike Organization

riderx
November 17th, 2010, 10:05 PM
Mid Atlantic Mountain Bike OrganizationFunny, MAMBO (Maryland Association of Mountain Bike Operators) was folded into MORE a couple of years ago

Going back to that name might lead to some confusion :confused: Personally wasn't a fan of that name either

PunkRock
November 17th, 2010, 10:40 PM
I'd like to see the club improve upon the name. Me thinks that adding some word(s) such as MTB, Biking, Trails, etc. would go a long way towards clarifying its purpose. To the uninitiated, MORE doesn't clearly convey what we're all about IMHO. If the name was clearer, then either individuals or groups looking for an mtb organization or trail building group would know immediately whether or not they should contact us for membership, funding possibilities, trail building, etc. There would be zero doubt in their minds as to what the club represents.

I'm going to stand by my original suggestion (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=177687#post177687) which is to slightly alter the name by adding the words 'Trail Advocacy' to it, MORE MTB and Trail Advocacy. This retains the club's existing identity but now it's expanded to further to emphasize the trail stewardship aspect as being an integral part of the overall mission.

JHarris
November 17th, 2010, 10:42 PM
FWIW, I didn't vote because I don't feel like I'm sufficiently well-informed to offer a useful opinion. What's the opportunity cost of changing the name? What goodies would get hacked out of the budget to cover it? Would any of MORE's partners care one way or t'other? Is there anything to gain beyond a better handle?

Granted, I'm a fairly recent joinee, but it may be worth sharing that until reading this thread I'm not sure I could have gotten beyond "Mid-Atlantic" before throwing up my hands and admitting I didn't know what MORE stands for. Part of that stems from my having a sieve for a brain. But part of it stems from the full name never having held any meaning for me. MORE is a cool name, but I have to say that neither the acronym nor the full name seem very usefully descriptive. It's always just been "MORE" to me.

So, if it's possible, I'd like to see the poll presented with some context. Perhaps, a few bullets listing what'd be gained (besides clarity/meaning) and a few laying out likely costs?

A bunch of dirt and sweat-spackled zealots by any other name... :thumbsup:

drewdane
November 17th, 2010, 10:51 PM
DC Ultra Mountain Bikers.

rockhead
November 17th, 2010, 11:20 PM
What's the opportunity cost of changing the name? What goodies would get hacked out of the budget to cover it? Would any of MORE's partners care one way or t'other? Is there anything to gain beyond a better handle?

Probably a difficult question to answer accurately. Cost in dollars would probably not extend beyond the legal paperwork stuff. We deliberately held off on putting out new merchandise because of this discussion, which came up earlier this year (or was it earlier?). We're also still planning for a new website and new logos/graphics would already be a part of that. So I'm sure no one would see any reduction in goodies. Although, an indirect cost would be in that we'd want to get new clothes and stickers out so as to get the word out rather quickly and consistently. Not necessarily new costs, but a spike in that type of expenditure.

There would be some time required to publicize the name to people who already know us by our current name. Of course, when I think about having to reach out to folks I deal with infrequently, it seems like it would be a good thing, anyways.

Are people going to be turned off by the change? Well, it's not like we are trying to change our image to something everyone's not on board with. We don't want to sound more intellectual or haughty. We would be looking for a name that sounds more like mountain bikers looking for trails to ride on. I doubt anyone will take offense to that.

I can only really speak to the impact on our relationships with other trail user groups and land managers and I would have to believe that would necessarily be nothing but positive. Whenever we have the chance to discuss our name with folks like that, they all agree that our current full name is not an accurate label for who we are.

Having said that, I wouldn't want us to focus our name exclusively on the advocacy aspect. While that's my primary role with the club, I see our other goal areas (see club rules (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=21937#post21937)) as just as important to our members. The social aspects - rides, community building, education - are just as important to me and I wouldn't want to make such a move that might alienate folks who are primarily interested in the club for those reasons.

The reason I limited the poll to a simple yes or no is because I think it's important to decide whether we feel it's a good thing for us to look into before undertaking the challenge finding a new name. Yes or no, do you think there is enough to gain to offset the potential negatives that come with the change.

At this point, I'm probably more worried about putting off the long-time members who identify with the name and would feel disconnected from this group if the name was changed. I'd love to hear from those folks in addition to those of you who are currently very active on the forums.

JHarris
November 17th, 2010, 11:40 PM
I'll tell ya, ask and ye shall receive! Thanks for the thoughtful response. Being new to the org, I'll still hold my vote until I've seen more of the back and forth. But I have to say that it sure would seem to make long-term sense to have the org named more directly for what it is/does.

mtbmore
November 18th, 2010, 12:14 AM
Changing the name for changing sake is for me not enough reason. If you have another name that says better what MORE is/does it would be easier to decide. There is a certain branding effect with MORE today but if another name says it better than I would be up for changing.

Scud

DKEG
November 18th, 2010, 06:23 AM
As a tubist we have an organization that used to be called TUBA. Tubists Universal Brotherhood Association. It was an easy to remember acronym and catchy. Several people 30 years later decided they wanted to leave their mark and take ownership in a new name so they had a hubbub about the name because it did not seem academic enough the few said. They also argued it excluded women. The final argument was the name did not name the euphonium which this professional organization represented.

After some discussions those on the committee decided to rename the organization ITEA. International Tuba Euphonium Association. This name fell in line with some other instrumental organizations.

The results? I and many many others still call the group TUBA. ITEA is pronounced I T E A instead of an easy catchy word like MORE or TUBA. The stuffiness of the new name reflected the stuffiness of the committee members who felt it imperative to leave their mark.

The resulting name did absolutely ZERO in promoting the respectability of the instrument. The only impact was resentment by longtime members who appreciated the founding name, money wasted on rebranding material, confusion in assuring outside parties that the new name was not a new group but in fact the same group whose committee had an identity crisis. It was essentially a failure for everyone except the committee who came up with the name and patted each other on the backs.

So I have seen this before. This current discussion sounds surprisingly like deja vu.

MORE = ITEA, but without the word Mountain Bike or any reference to Mountain Biking or Advocacy.

I do not advocate changing the name for the sake of changing the name. It is all about the name says nothing about mountain biking or advocacy. The name just misses the mark. A name should let people know who we are and what we are about. MORE does neither.

I do understand the brand name. But companies have change their before and have been successful. I am leaning towards RiderX's suggestion of MORE Mountain Bike Advocacy.

philvw
November 18th, 2010, 07:28 AM
Person #2: Mid Atlantic Off Road Pack Goat Enthusiasts, MORPGE for short. We used to be called The Goat Packers Assoc. but people always laughed for some reason.


*and your guys think full keg is kidding! They actually contacted us this summer!

tuba_transport
November 18th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Whatever the decision is regarding rebranding I am sure the club will continue its consistent path.

kenzen410
November 18th, 2010, 09:27 AM
As someone who's not deeply involved with the organization, i.e. take my opinion with a grain a salt, I think that simply adding the words "mountain bike advocacy" would be a big improvement.

What are you? We are MORE-Mountain Bike Advocacy
What is MORE? Mid-Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts

Organizational purpose is nailed, geographical region is described, and name recognition is preserved.

However, five years from now will the debate resurface to lose the "MORE" in favor of something like "Mid-Atlantic Mountain Bike Advocacy"?

tompkinsbj
November 18th, 2010, 10:28 AM
Just like Kentucky Fried Chicken became KFC, I advocate Mid-Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts (a.k.a. MORE) become MORE Mountain Bike Advocacy. We retain the familiar MORE name while losing the negative and gaining something that explains what we do.

I'm tending to agree. In business branding is KING, for example I know that at Rolls-Royce (the engine manufacturer) there is an entire booklet (30 plus pages) dedicated to the brand, down to the colors, line widths and fonts, put on everything (trucks, buildings, notepaper, business cards, etc..ad nausea) the business owns or distributes.

But here is a case in point, my current company was bought 5 years ago and this caused a name change from a very well recognized firm to one which was unheard of in this industry. To this day I still have to explain to people who we actually are and why we can claim the experience that we do :hammertime:.

The above solution protects the brand, and all of the years of hard work from countless volunteers, while still adding clarity. mtb.more also fits this mold. I think if you were to put a group of real marketing people together and present them with this question we would be resoundingly told to protect our existing successful brand at all cost.

Brent

denisvtt
November 18th, 2010, 11:01 AM
I don't like the word "advocacy" in the name. It's too limiting (that's not all we do!). I do think the words "mountain bike" or "mountain bikers" should appear somewhere.

Washington Area Mountain Bikers?
Washington Area Mountain Bikers Association?

kenzen410
November 18th, 2010, 11:18 AM
Washington Area Mountain Bikers?
Washington Area Mountain Bikers Association?

Calling it "Washington Area" will alienate everyone outside of the DC metro area. That would be another decision altogether.

allroy
November 18th, 2010, 12:10 PM
For me Off-Road is extremely confusing when introducing ourselves to someone for all the reasons already stated. I do see value in just MORE and have been leaving off the acronym when talking with others.

I would agree about Advocacy, that is one singular focus of the club (albeit and important one). It eliminates the social/ride/event/ side of the club.

Mid-Atlantic is a much better representation for the of geography of the club and fits us nicely between NEMBA and SORBA.

Depending who I talk to I change the tagline as needed (not ideal)

Fellow riders
MORE
The local mountain bike club

Land manager
MORE
MTB advocacy organization

For promoting (print & online)
MORE
Riding Bikes & Building Trail since 1992!

I don't like the word "advocacy" in the name. It's too limiting (that's not all we do!). I do think the words "mountain bike" or "mountain bikers" should appear somewhere.

Washington Area Mountain Bikers?
Washington Area Mountain Bikers Association?

Bandit
November 18th, 2010, 12:38 PM
I voted and I am for the name change. In addition to MORE not accurately describing who we are, I am in favor of changing it to MAMBA for two simple reasons.

1. I like acronyms for organizations.
2. It also lines up with other similar Mountain Bike organizations (NEMBA, IMBA)

riderx
November 18th, 2010, 12:54 PM
I don't like the word "advocacy" in the name. It's too limiting (that's not all we do!). I do think the words "mountain bike" or "mountain bikers" should appear somewhere.

Washington Area Mountain Bikers?
Washington Area Mountain Bikers Association?Agree that the word Advocacy may be too limiting in my suggestion, but it sounds like you get where I'm driving: retain the MORE brand and name, lose the Off Road Enthusiast part, and clarify who we are.

While Mid-Atlantic can be a bit vague, Washington is too narrow. We have a big presence in the Baltimore area and then those of us out in Frederick and beyond. And you MoCo people don't really consider yourself DC, do you? I sure wouldn't want to! :D

philvw
November 18th, 2010, 02:03 PM
Joe (RiderX) pointed to the Kansas City organization that split into two parts, the advocacy part and the riding part. We could do that with keeping the acronym with a triad.

MORE Trails!
MORE Rides!
MORE Party!

Whoo hoo!

Cjones
November 18th, 2010, 02:57 PM
Although, an indirect cost would be in that we'd want to get new clothes and stickers out so as to get the word out rather quickly and consistently.

This is probably way down on the list of priorities, but on thing we lack is any decent merch. With the exception of the swag at the summer/winter parties I think in all the time I've been here the only thing offered (unless I missed something) was socks, wool jerseys, and free stickers.

An organization as big as MORE should at least have t-shirts, hats, jerseys, socks, and stickers offered for purchase on a semi-regular basis and occasional cool things like bottle openers or something.

Is a logo redesign planned after a decision about the name?

We've been talking about getting the word out. People wearing MORE stuff with a cool new logo would help with that.

Jackson
November 18th, 2010, 03:08 PM
This is probably way down on the list of priorities, but on thing we lack is any decent merch. With the exception of the swag at the summer/winter parties I think in all the time I've been here the only thing offered (unless I missed something) was socks, wool jerseys, and free stickers.

An organization as big as MORE should at least have t-shirts, hats, jerseys, socks, and stickers offered for purchase on a semi-regular basis and occasional cool things like bottle openers or something.

Is a logo redesign planned after a decision about the name?

We've been talking about getting the word out. People wearing MORE stuff with a cool new logo would help with that.

You mean like these?

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4494/morebottle.jpg

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5342/pinth.jpg

Cjones
November 18th, 2010, 03:15 PM
You mean like these?

Yes! I have the pint glass from last year but couldn't make it to the Fall Douthat trip this year.

escatmore
November 18th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I have a perfect example that came to me earlier today that sums up the who are we argument. The following text is lifted from an article about the recent MD Trails Summit that will appear some time soon in a sierra club newsletter. We didn't write it, didn't know it was getting written, had zero input on its creation and have zero input on its future publication.

Now picture yourself a Sierra Club member, not a mountain biker in the know, reading your newsletter, drinking your morning coffee:

Patrick Miller of the Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts (MORE) stated that their goal is for the State’s trails to be connected and usable. Everyone is out there for the same experience—to be on a natural surface trail. Non-paved trails can be developed and maintained so they do not cause erosion and do not otherwise harm the environment. MORE has developed a shared-use trail plan that it is presenting to the DNR, Baltimore City, and other land managers. Trail users need to band together to keep public lands accessible, especially now that Baltimore City has started to limit public access in the reservoir areas.

No where in there does it say MORE is a mountain bike club. If I'm that coffee drinking uninformed Sierra Club member, I just spit my coffee all over the place. Off-Roaders want shared use trails in the reservoirs!?!

can't believe I've flipped on this one. Initially I was against the name change no matter what. Now I'm all for it if it says who/what we are.

eric

Jackson
November 18th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Yes! I have the pint glass from last year but couldn't make it to the Fall Douthat trip this year.

We sell the left over stock, but it's hit and miss. I have the remaining pint glasses; Jason I think has the remain steel bottles.

I can tell you, as someone who a fair amount of club crap/junk/schwag is this stuff can be a PITA to store.

I love having schwag, but we would really need someone to run a merchandising campaign and operation. It does help with branding, though, for certain. It has gotten easier as we generally stay away from "time stamped" items. A MORE pint glass has some sale value; a MORE pint glass that says "Douthat 2004" has much less appeal.

Also, the make/print on-demand stuff like Cafe Press is not always the kind of quality we would want to represent.

patrickgmiller
November 18th, 2010, 04:31 PM
I know I said mountain bike a dozen times in that speech.
The name should say mountain bike. MORE as is is confusing and leaves many thinking we are atvs.
I've started introducing myself from IMBA first because it is more clear and I don't want to waste what little time I have explaining the acronym.

riderx
November 19th, 2010, 08:39 AM
No where in there does it say MORE is a mountain bike club. If I'm that coffee drinking uninformed Sierra Club member, I just spit my coffee all over the place. Off-Roaders want shared use trails in the reservoirs!?!
This is a perfect example of why we need to make clear who we are. I wish it were a made up example instead of a something that is real.

Even if we went the full KFC route and dropped what the MORE acronym stood for and just used "MORE", we wouldn't have the above quote which will likely be misunderstood.

rockhead
November 19th, 2010, 10:17 AM
This is a perfect example of why we need to make clear who we are. I wish it were a made up example instead of a something that is real.

and it's not the first real example. There are several believable made-up and some very good really-happened examples in this and the earlier thread. And yet, the polls are saying we don't believe it's worth fixing the problem.

:confused2:

JHarris
November 19th, 2010, 10:23 AM
There are a lot of really good points made in this thread, and maybe enough of 'em that it'll soon be tough for folks to take it all in. If anyone wants to take a shot at a thorough summation of key points, that might be really useful.

I orta be working, but did a really quick distillation of key points that stood out for me. I've quoted some of them below. Apologies for not necessarily finding quotes from first person to make a particular point.

Reasons to keep the name:
Branding is important.
Acronyms don't have to convey meaning implicitly.
MORE lends itself well to combination names (e.g., MORE MTB, MORE MTB Advocacy, etc.).

Reasons to change the name:
"MORE" lacks clear meaning--neither the full name nor the acronym says what MORE's about.
Mid-Atlantic Mountain Biking Association (MAMBA) would conform with the names of similar clubs to the north and south and convey meaning.
It sounds like changing the name might not mean as much to MORE's work, its partner organizations, and future members as it might to current members. A name change wouldn't drain organizational resources.

My take:
MORE ain't exactly KFC when it comes to current brand recognition, and there'll never be a better time to change the name. So, let's change it. FWIW, I think the org would benefit from an acronym that would make a meaningful vanity plate--an acronym like MORE MTB, MTNBIKER, KNOBBY, or something that's actually cool/creative. I'm not in love with "MAMBA" unless there's something meaningful to be gained by aligning with the names of other clubs.

If a bulleted summary of key points seems useful, maybe an enterprising soul can take the above bullets and revise/build them as seems useful so we have something of a working doc that helps newcomers to the discussion wade through the issues.
--John

Just like Kentucky Fried Chicken became KFC, I advocate Mid-Atlantic Off Road Enthusiasts (a.k.a. MORE) become MORE Mountain Bike Advocacy. We retain the familiar MORE name while losing the negative and gaining something that explains what we do.

Joe (RiderX) pointed to the Kansas City organization that split into two parts, the advocacy part and the riding part. We could do that with keeping the acronym with a triad.

MORE Trails!
MORE Rides!
MORE Party!
QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bandit;195878]I voted and I am for the name change. In addition to MORE not accurately describing who we are, I am in favor of changing it to MAMBA for two simple reasons.

1. I like acronyms for organizations.
2. It also lines up with other similar Mountain Bike organizations (NEMBA, IMBA)

Probably a difficult question to answer accurately. Cost in dollars would probably not extend beyond the legal paperwork stuff. We deliberately held off on putting out new merchandise because of this discussion, which came up earlier this year (or was it earlier?). We're also still planning for a new website and new logos/graphics would already be a part of that. So I'm sure no one would see any reduction in goodies. Although, an indirect cost would be in that we'd want to get new clothes and stickers out so as to get the word out rather quickly and consistently. Not necessarily new costs, but a spike in that type of expenditure.

There would be some time required to publicize the name to people who already know us by our current name. Of course, when I think about having to reach out to folks I deal with infrequently, it seems like it would be a good thing, anyways.

Are people going to be turned off by the change? Well, it's not like we are trying to change our image to something everyone's not on board with. We don't want to sound more intellectual or haughty. We would be looking for a name that sounds more like mountain bikers looking for trails to ride on. I doubt anyone will take offense to that.

I can only really speak to the impact on our relationships with other trail user groups and land managers and I would have to believe that would necessarily be nothing but positive. Whenever we have the chance to discuss our name with folks like that, they all agree that our current full name is not an accurate label for who we are.

Having said that, I wouldn't want us to focus our name exclusively on the advocacy aspect. While that's my primary role with the club, I see our other goal areas (see club rules (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?p=21937#post21937)) as just as important to our members. The social aspects - rides, community building, education - are just as important to me and I wouldn't want to make such a move that might alienate folks who are primarily interested in the club for those reasons.

The reason I limited the poll to a simple yes or no is because I think it's important to decide whether we feel it's a good thing for us to look into before undertaking the challenge finding a new name. Yes or no, do you think there is enough to gain to offset the potential negatives that come with the change.

At this point, I'm probably more worried about putting off the long-time members who identify with the name and would feel disconnected from this group if the name was changed. I'd love to hear from those folks in addition to those of you who are currently very active on the forums.

tompkinsbj
November 19th, 2010, 10:27 AM
and it's not the first real example. There are several believable made-up and some very good really-happened examples in this and the earlier thread. And yet, the polls are saying we don't believe it's worth fixing the problem.

:confused2:

I think the poll is not clear enough. People who agree that MORE is an important part of the brand don't want to create a "new" handle. It is more about improving the current one. So where is the option in the poll to keep MORE and clarify our intent?

As it currently read there are two options:

"Out with the old, in with the new"
or
"Do nothing"

I for one want an other, i agree more with the do nothing side as a means to keep the brand alive but I think there needs to be a certain clarification, change,? I dunno.

rockhead
November 19th, 2010, 10:59 AM
I think the poll is not clear enough. People who agree that MORE is an important part of the brand don't want to create a "new" handle. It is more about improving the current one. So where is the option in the poll to keep MORE and clarify our intent?

As it currently read there are two options:

"Out with the old, in with the new"
or
"Do nothing"

I for one want an other, i agree more with the do nothing side as a means to keep the brand alive but I think there needs to be a certain clarification, change,? I dunno.

Sorry, I thought my original post made it clear.
We've now been talking about this long enough so people know the deal.
Thought I'd get a head count of how many people believe we should change our name. By change, I mean total changes that would not sound anything like MORE or retaining the four letter acronym "MORE" and changing or dropping the words that comprise it.

If you believe the name is fine as is or it's not worth the hassle or the cost and confusion that goes along with the change, then give us a NO vote.

Perhaps it's all the discussion about what the name should be that is confusing you. The question comes down quite simply to whether you think we should make a change or you think we should leave it alone. Going from Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts to just MORE, or MORE with whatever tagline you'd like to add would constitute a change of our name. If you think we should do that, then click in the circle next to the word "Yes".

The question is valid because it's the first step in the rehabilitation process: recognizing you have a problem. At this point, 52% of respondents don't believe we have a problem that a name change would address. My interpretation of those results is that we don't even need to continue with the challenge of deciding what a better name might be because the majority of people are happy with the name Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts .

IF we decide there is enough support to pursue a name change, that's when we can get into the deliberation of which name to choose and whether it should continue to include the word "MORE".

Hope that helps to clarify the poll.

riderx
November 19th, 2010, 11:42 AM
I agree, I think the poll is unclear because most members (IMO) view our official name as MORE, not Mid Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts. So if you ask, "should we keep our name", a lot of people likely say YES.

Also, you initial explanation is at odds your follow up (at least the way I read it), so it's still unclear on what the poll is talking about changing.

Initial Post:By change, I mean total changes that would not sound anything like MORE or retaining the four letter acronym "MORE" and changing or dropping the words that comprise it.

Follow up explanation:
The question comes down quite simply to whether you think we should make a change or you think we should leave it alone. Going from Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts to just MORE, or MORE with whatever tagline you'd like to add would constitute a change of our name. If you think we should do that, then click in the circle next to the word "Yes".


My interpretation of those results is that we don't even need to continue with the challenge of deciding what a better name might be because the majority of people are happy with the name Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts .
As you initially stated, this isn't a vote but rather a survey of opinion. When approx. 50% of those polled so far thinks we have a branding problem, I'd call that pretty significant. But beyond that, we have ~700 members and less than 100 people have answered the poll. Of those who answered the poll, how many are members?

tuba_transport
November 19th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Now picture yourself a Sierra Club member, not a mountain biker in the know, reading your newsletter, drinking your morning coffee:

Who is the "Sierra Club"? What do they do? I can't tell by that vague name.

BikerMiker
November 19th, 2010, 12:27 PM
MORE isn't a name, it's what's behind the name that matters. If you introduce yourself as from MORE and people don't know who that is, you don't answer what the acronym STANDS FOR you say what MORE does. 'MORE is a mountain bike club that does a lot of advocacy, trail design and construction.'

MORE should focus on the difficult stuff like expanding trails in Western MD where there is a ton of opportunity but no long-term plan and resources.

Methinks the board is bored. I'd be more focused on keeping the club solvent and preventing its destruction after what happened with IMBA and an errant board member a few years ago.

mk

riderx
November 19th, 2010, 01:03 PM
MORE should focus on the difficult stuff like expanding trails in Western MD where there is a ton of opportunity but no long-term plan and resources.While that would be great, we've got more than enough to handle in our current trail inventory (besides that not really being in our "territory"). Without someone to spearhead an effort like that, we'd be overextending ourselves beyond what we already are. Now, if you are volunteering to head that up, we'll be all ears...

Methinks the board is bored. I'd be more focused on keeping the club solvent and preventing its destruction after what happened with IMBA and an errant board member a few years ago.Yeah, we're board. :rolleyes: If we didn't think it was an issue we would have shelved it a long time ago. We've got more than enough to keep us busy.

rockhead
November 19th, 2010, 01:05 PM
I agree, I think the poll is unclear because most members (IMO) view our official name as MORE, not Mid Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts. So if you ask, "should we keep our name", a lot of people likely say YES.

Also, you initial explanation is at odds your follow up (at least the way I read it), so it's still unclear on what the poll is talking about changing.

Initial Post:

Follow up explanation:




As you initially stated, this isn't a vote but rather a survey of opinion. When approx. 50% of those polled so far thinks we have a branding problem, I'd call that pretty significant. But beyond that, we have ~700 members and less than 100 people have answered the poll. Of those who answered the poll, how many are members?

I give up. Think what you want. I wanted us to gain a sense of how much interest (beyond the active posters and the current board) there is in entertaining a name change. I think we got that.

I believe the number of people who have trouble with English is statistically insignificant for the sake of this poll. Thanks for trying, though.

Flying_W
November 19th, 2010, 02:11 PM
We've now been talking about this long enough so people know the deal. If you believe the name is fine as is or it's not worth the hassle or the cost and confusion that goes along with the change, then give us a NO vote.
Thanks!
--
As a new member, I wish to offer some outside perspective. On my very first FH ride after relocating here, I ran into 3 HS guys that gave me the MORE website. Whether or not they knew it's actual name was unimportant. What did matter was that of the info given, MORE was first mentioned, and the site easily found. So it would appear that our current brand recognition is strong. While the actual name, and it's meaning may not be crystal, as others have mentioned it is workable.

Try explaining this one to a group .. "What group are you folks with?" Rage. "What is THAT?" Oh we're a local mt biking club from Portland that promotes area mtn biking, trail access, and maintenance. "Oh, really the name sounds like your just mad at the world."
http://www.ragemtb.com/mainiacs/
So coming from this... I view MORE as a great name that is well-established, widely recognized, and it's meaning easily tweaked.
--

riderx
November 19th, 2010, 02:22 PM
I give up. Think what you want. I wanted us to gain a sense of how much interest (beyond the active posters and the current board) there is in entertaining a name change. I think we got that.

I believe the number of people who have trouble with English is statistically insignificant for the sake of this poll. Thanks for trying, though.

Frank - Well, in my above post I was going to add the disclaimer that I wasn't trying to bust your balls, then decide not to. Guess I should have - because I wasn't. :bangshead: The poll was useful and appreciated, not to mention it has generated a lot of good discussion and ideas. :thumbsup: Keep in mind, I'm just as likely to be wrong as I am to be right. Based on the comments here you are probably right, the number of people interpreting the poll's intention are probably minimal.

kevin
November 19th, 2010, 04:18 PM
MORE isn't a name, it's what's behind the name that matters. If you introduce yourself as from MORE and people don't know who that is, you don't answer what the acronym STANDS FOR you say what MORE does. 'MORE is a mountain bike club that does a lot of advocacy, trail design and construction.'


I totally agree with this, but I think that is why the name needs to "modified".

The logo in the header of this website has the MORE acronym spelled out. Also, my guess is that that the spelled out acronym is the legal name of the organization?

In either case, I gotta believe (though don't know for sure) that the spelled out acronym gets included in official documents (grants, proposals, etc) that get consumed by readers when a MORE person isn't around to put a story around what MORE "stands for".

Clearly some of you think this would be a waste of time/money. I defer to the subset of MORE members who are doing the advocacy stuff and doing the talking. They know best whether this is truly a problem or not.

From the posts in this thread, I'm convinced it is a problem and that the name should be modified. My opinion is that dropping the acronym is the right answer.

Kevin

rockhead
November 20th, 2010, 10:31 AM
Correct on both counts, Kevin.

Ok, so we drop the offensive "off-road" but keep the acronym and add a catchy tagline. I think I have it....

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo200/frankraiti/MORE-standforsomething.jpg

I'll start working on the new bumber stickers.

jon_baler
November 20th, 2010, 11:51 AM
I like the idea of keeping "MORE", but dropping the words.

So surprised (sarcasm), no one has mentioned this, but FFA did the same thing years ago. That's right, FFA no longer stands for "Future Farmers of America". In the modern world, there is a lot more to agricultural than just farming. And some people don't connotate the word "farmer" with a modern, progressive organization.

kevin
November 20th, 2010, 02:46 PM
Ok, so we drop the offensive "off-road" but keep the acronym and add a catchy tagline.

Not-so-catchy-or-terribly-creative tagline possibilities:

MORE Mountain Bike Advocacy
MORE Mid-Atlantic Mountain Bike Advocacy
MORE Mountain Bike Riding and Advocacy
MORE Mid-Atlantic Mountain Bike Riding and Advocacy

Cjones
November 20th, 2010, 06:30 PM
Ok, so we drop the offensive "off-road" but keep the acronym and add a catchy tagline.

I think this is the way to go. And to make things easier, we have 3 different taglines.
One fun, one advocacy, one website. Use whatever one you want depending on your needs. The advocacy one goes on official documents and things like that.

MORE
Mountain Bike Advocacy

MORE
Riding Bikes & Building Trails

MORE
www.more-mtb.org

MyOtherBrotherL
November 20th, 2010, 08:06 PM
..... we have ~700 members and less than 100 people have answered the poll. Of those who answered the poll, how many are members?

Our version of vBulletin doesn't group the results into categories like that. I can see the results and who voted but short of knowing who is a member and who's not; I would have to click on each name or look them up 1 at a time.

(I ain'ts looking up no 100 names either!!! :D )

A quick glance at some of the names shows some trending between old guard and new guard but even in that there was a mix.

One married couple voted in opposite camps and surprisingly two members of the roving mafia voted against each other too.

And I gotta tell ya, I feel kind of slimy (Slimier??) looking at the results. I only did it to see what options were available for data analysis and there ain't much.

Last Thing: We hit a magic total today of 721 paid MORE members!!!

Yea - MORE members

escatmore
November 21st, 2010, 04:07 PM
Baler, you're on the east coast now. No one here knows who the FFA is either way they spell it.

eric

tompkinsbj
November 23rd, 2010, 11:46 AM
Frank - Well, in my above post I was going to add the disclaimer that I wasn't trying to bust your balls, then decide not to. Guess I should have - because I wasn't. :bangshead: The poll was useful and appreciated, not to mention it has generated a lot of good discussion and ideas. :thumbsup: Keep in mind, I'm just as likely to be wrong as I am to be right. Based on the comments here you are probably right, the number of people interpreting the poll's intention are probably minimal.

Ditto on the ball busting!

Frank, I guess I was reacting to the fact that my first read of the poll was without reading your first post and my reaction was "Why would we want to get rid of MORE?" I get it now, x number of posts into it. :o

rockhead
November 23rd, 2010, 12:24 PM
Ditto on the ball busting!

Frank, I guess I was reacting to the fact that my first read of the poll was without reading your first post and my reaction was "Why would we want to get rid of MORE?" I get it now, x number of posts into it. :o

No worries, that's why I dug that old post up. But even that was a bit too obscure to help everyone, which is why I had to make that lame-a$$ attempt at busting Joe's balls. Didn't mean to catch you in the cross-fire.

I'll have to run my next poll through the Fredneck filter so it comes out actually making sense. Thanks to you and Joe for calling me out.

As my daughter would write... <3

punga
November 23rd, 2010, 04:40 PM
No worries, that's why I dug that old post up. But even that was a bit too obscure to help everyone, which is why I had to make that lame-a$$ attempt at busting Joe's balls. Didn't mean to catch you in the cross-fire....

Do I actually get to moderate 2 board members? :D:thumbsup:

mtbmore
November 23rd, 2010, 08:28 PM
MORE isn't a name, it's what's behind the name that matters. If you introduce yourself as from MORE and people don't know who that is, you don't answer what the acronym STANDS FOR you say what MORE does. 'MORE is a mountain bike club that does a lot of advocacy, trail design and construction.'


mk

Let the record reflect I agree with esteemed gentleman from Maryland.