Save Loch Raven

[escatmore]

Night Riding: Don't do it. They're giving out citations now, $100. I know of at least three and have heard there were up to 10.

The watershed lands are closed at sunset.

The days of what the city sees as lawlessness and zero enforcement are over.

I have a call in to the ranger staff to clarify ( praying the new push isn't associated with the recent demo ... ) and will keep you posted here and http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=6332693

Whether you agree with it or not, it can't get any clearer.

Don't do it.

eric

[patrickgmiller]

MORE and IMBA Reps have reached out to the Nate Evans, Baltimore City Bicycle and Pedestrian Planner and chair of the Baltimore Regional Transportation Board. Nate has helped start a conversation with Councilwoman Mary Pat Clarke who is interested in meeting with Loch Raven trail users and discussing the situation.
Please note that the singletrack and nighttime bans apply to all trail users, not just mountain bikers. Let your runner and hiker friends know this change in enforcement policy impacts them too.

What can you do right now to help? First, join MORE. Every time we meet with land managers they want to know how big our membership is. The larger our membership number, the more likely they are to listen. Suck it up, pay $25 and help fund advocacy on the trails your ride. http://www.more-mtb.org/index.php?page=membership

Second, talk to other Loch Raven trail users, let them know what is going on and get their email addresses so you can keep them up to date.

Leading the effort for MORE are the Loch Raven Liasons, Bob Compton and Dave Blum as well as Eric Crawford and Rick McClain.

[rciracing]

Loch Raven update


Login Welcome to Baltimore Spokes
Monday, November 30 2009 @ 01:41 PM EST
Google
Loch Raven reservoir update
Monday, November 30 2009 @ 08:48 AM EST

Contributed by: The human car

Views: 4

[From our mail box:]

The group ran into Dept of Public Works Natural Resource Div officer Simon Phillips on the fireroad. This was on the back side of the reservoir near the small dam. He was clearing the fireroad of debris when the group rode up on him. He informed us that we were riding on a fireroad that was not authorized for recreational use. He sympathized with our cause but was committed in doing his job by the book. The officers receive their direction from the Dept of Publc Works. It is in our best interest to be receptive and non confrontational until this is resolved.

The DPW is enforcing the laws that have been on the books since 1999 in regards to recreational use of the watershed. People will be given verbal warning with the second warning resulting in a possible $100.00 fine. Warnings and fines are discretionary. Blatant night riding well after dusk appears to be an automatic fine.

It is rumored that a MB singletrack user on the Seminary trail received a $100 hit Sat. This was overheard in Performance bike shop. Several riders on the Merrymans loop received warnings and or tkts also. If you have not heard, 8-10 riders on 11/18 were given $100 tkts on the singletrack climb out to Providence Rd from the fireroad off of the Seminary loop.

The fireroads that appear to be ok to use are- 1. Seminary fireroad. 2. Providence Rd and Loch Raven Drive fireroad near gate. 3.Jarretsvile Turnpike entrance across from white house to Merrymans fireroad. Parking back on Dulaney Valley Rd. 4. Loch Raven Drive across from small island. Fireroad sits back off of the road about 25 yards. Fireroad is on left before bridge with cement sides. Please check DPW website for verification and maps. http://www.ci.baltimore.md.us/government/dpw/water/rnrs/index.php
You can use this web site to view the MB plan for Loch Raven. Map at bottom of plan page.

We were told that singletrack use is off limits to everyone at ALL. times. This applies to fisherman, hikers, joggers, equestians (horses), and MB. Sounds crazy but it sounds like that are going to follow the book with a magnifying glass.


Trail markings will be forthcoming. This will help designate trails that can be used for recreational use.

There will be a hearing on Mon 12/14 with the DPW and Mary Pat Clark (Balto City Council). Open to the public. Location and time will follow as soon as I find out. Please prepare concerns, ideas / solutions.

Finally, you are encourages to join MORE. They appear to be our best advocates locally. www.more-mtb.org/

[patrickgmiller]

I just spoke with Councilman Clarke's office. The resolution she recently introduced, http://legistar.baltimorecitycouncil.com/attachments/5336.pdf, will result in a public hearing in front of the City Council's Community Development Subcommittee, which is chaired by Councilman Cole, and also comprised of Councilman Holton and Councilman Henry.

The hearing will likely be in January and the public will have an opportunity to testify as well as submit written testimony. A strong showing of mountainbikers will help show the public support for night riding and singletrack riding in the City watersheds.

In the meantime, the Mayor's Bicycle Advisory Committee is meeting on the 14th with representatives from DPW to discuss the situation.

[patrickgmiller]

City Paper on Loch Raven:
http://www.citypaper.com/news/story.asp?id=19390

Please post comments supporting bikes

[escatmore]

IMBA Action Alert - Protect MTB Access at Loch Raven Watershed

Protect Mountain Biking Access at Loch Raven Watershed

Ask Baltimore Mayor Shelia Dixon and the Baltimore City Council to work more closely with mountain bikers. We have ridden the trails at Loch Raven Watershed for years, yet an abrupt change in management policies has recently been imposed on our user group, with no opportunity for dialogue or collaborative problem solving.

Take Action! (http://go.imba.com/site/R?i=yrP5VlrOzf1mE558sA4LxA..)

Recently the Department of Public Works Reservoir Natural Resources Section Police officers have begun ticketing and fining trail users in Baltimore's Loch Raven Watershed. These fines have come without warnings nor an attempt to create a dialogue with the user groups who have been responsible for maintaining the resources for the many years.

More Information

Many similar areas in Maryland and other Mid-Atlantic States welcome trail users as vested partners in management who will quickly alert authorities if something is amiss. At Loch Raven, the lack of adequate storm water management threatens the quality of the watershed, yet trail users -- who volunteer to maintain trails and remove trash -- are receiving tickets.

Baltimore's watersheds, especially Loch Raven, are among the largest open spaces accessible to Maryland residents. We recognize the challenges in managing such a large geographic area with diverse user groups. In order to create a partnership between trail users and DPW, we suggest the following actions:

- Immediate suspension of ticketing and fining trail users.
- Creation of a map and signage on the existing network.
- Begin treating all trail users equally and ensuring all maintained trails are open to all users.
- Implementation of a night riding program, similar to agreements the Mid-Atlantic Off-Road Enthusiasts (MORE) has with Maryland DNR and other land mangers.
- Creation of a trail maintenance agreement between the City and trail users groups, similar to agreements MORE has with Maryland DNR and other land mangers.
- Implementation of the "annual review of mountain biking activities." The Loch Ravenmanagement plan called for this, yet it has never been executed.

Please take action on this important issue!

[kevin29r]

I guess I'm confused. :confused2:

Is trail use restricted altogether, or just night use? Here is what the official web page (http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/Agencies/environment/watersheds/ep_lrmain.html) says:

"In addition, there are more than 20 miles of trails and fire-roads throughout the watershed that are perfect for running, hiking, horseback riding and mountain biking."

[bills]

That sounds all nice and good, but the ranger was at Merrymans, the Saturday morning before last, throwing people off the single track... saying to ride back to our cars on the street - "all singletrack is off limits; $100 fine next time."

[chaostactics]

I guess I'm confused. :confused2:

Is trail use restricted altogether, or just night use? Here is what the official web page (http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/Agencies/environment/watersheds/ep_lrmain.html) says:

"In addition, there are more than 20 miles of trails and fire-roads throughout the watershed that are perfect for running, hiking, horseback riding and mountain biking."

As am I this is one of the places I was looking into taking my new bike:confused2:

[escatmore]

I guess I'm confused. :confused2:

Is trail use restricted altogether, or just night use? Here is what the official web page (http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/Agencies/environment/watersheds/ep_lrmain.html) says:

"In addition, there are more than 20 miles of trails and fire-roads throughout the watershed that are perfect for running, hiking, horseback riding and mountain biking."

The official website is not the one you reference. that's the county's website. the land is controlled by the city and you should be looking here for an official website (http://baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/water/rnrs/index.php). Note the link on the left that leads to the Mountain Bike Plan (http://baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/water/rnrs/downloads/A%20Plan%20for%20Mountain%20Biking. pdf).

Trail use is restricted to open fire roads only. The text on the Baltimore County webpage is misleading at best as far as the city is concerned.

eric

[jmolsonnv]

The name of this thread should be changed to something like Save Loch Raven. Its about more then just night riding. My 2 cents.

[punga]

The name of this thread should be changed to something like Save Loch Raven....

Done.........

[skijim668]

done 23456789

[kevin]

Done.........

While I like the new title, Eric's first post now looks like it's called "Save Loch Raven" and his first words are "Don't do it". :)

For clarity and posterity, the name of this thread started as "Night Riding at Loch Raven" and THAT is something you shouldn't do!

I've sent my email, have you sent yours?

Kevin

[mabagal]

I've sent my email, have you sent yours?
Kevin

Just sent mine too. It's really easy to do and take a few minutes.
Do you have to live in MD? or can our VA friends send emails too?

[riderx]

Just sent mine too. It's really easy to do and take a few minutes.
Do you have to live in MD? or can our VA friends send emails too?If you ride LR or ever want to, send it. I imagine Balto. City residents letters will carry the most weight as the City owns the property, but all users should send letters.

[escatmore]

While I like the new title, Eric's first post now looks like it's called "Save Loch Raven" and his first words are "Don't do it". :)

For clarity and posterity, the name of this thread started as "Night Riding at Loch Raven" and THAT is something you shouldn't do!

I've sent my email, have you sent yours?

Kevin

fixed, let me know if it doesn't fit.

eric

[rmac]

If you've never ridden Loch Raven, it's pretty damn nice. Hopefully you'll get the opportunity in 2010. Please send out those letters. THANKS.

[kevin29r]

I sent customized letters last night using the IMBA (Take Action!) link.

[escatmore]

REI, MORE and IMBA are hosting a public meeting on Monday December 14 at 7PM in the back room ( warehouse ) of REI's Timonium store.

We will be updating the public on the days events. What events? Haven't you heard? The City has begun pushing people off the singletrack and fireroads around Loch Raven!

Please attend for the latest news and to get answers to your questions.

Links for you so savvy:

MORE thread: http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17093

Have you written your letter yet? IMBA Action Alert: https://secure2.convio.net/imba/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=289

Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loch-Raven-Trail-Users/193410263233?ref=nf

email contact for the latest info: lochraventrailusers@gmail.com

Google group to get the latest information sent directly to you: http://groups.google.com/group/loch-raven-trail-users

website of a local user with the latest http://savetheraven.com/

Eric S. Crawford
MORE Trail Liaison
www.more-mtb.org

[cascade1]

All trail users should take note of this situation; if mountain bikers can't use Loch Raven, where are they gonna go? Is Patapsco is too crowded already?

[bunky]

For the sake of clarity, what exactly is happening at Loch Raven?

Are they ticketing MTBers altogether (assuming there were regs on the books prohibiting MTBing, which I don't think was the case), or are they just ticketing those caught night-riding (which I am assuming was a no-no, but people got used to doing it)?

[patrickgmiller]

Here is the article from today's Sun:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-md.sp.mountainbike10dec10,0,507258. story

Please post comments on the Sun's website.

Thanks

[mtbGreg]

Here is the article from today's Sun:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-md.sp.mountainbike10dec10,0,507258. story

Please post comments on the Sun's website.

Thanks

Quote from article:

"These are clear guidelines so that you can have recreational biking without degrading the habitat around our drinking water supply," he said. "This international organization doesn't know a thing about Loch Raven. They don't care about wildlife or sensitive plants, they just want to ride. If they were riding over George Washington's grave, they wouldn't care."

WOW. Wow. :nope:

Quote from comments:

"To blame bike riding for water quality issues is akin to blaming global warming on gnat flatulence." :thumbsup:

[patrickgmiller]

You can help right now by:
1. Post a comment on the Sun page showing how baseless Mr. Kocher's claims are and mountain bikers are responsible, contribute thousands of volunteer hours annually and are good environmental stewards

2. Send a quick personal email to:
mayor@baltimorecity.gov
CouncilPresident@baltimorecity.gov
MaryPat.Clarke@baltimorecity.gov

3. Get 5 other people to do the same

The mayor's office has already emailed us this morning about the article, if we can flood them with emails we can have a real impact.

[bunky]

"To blame bike riding for water quality issues is akin to blaming global warming on gnat flatulence." :thumbsup:

That is a great comment. But you cut off the part any angry letter to the city should contain:

The wooded area around the Loch Raven Reservoir is NOT the wataershed. Loch Raven watershed is hundreds of square miles in size an goes all the way up into Pennsylvania. The north end of the reservoir is almost completely silted in. Guess what - not from recreational use of any kind. Up-stream land development is the primary cause of the reservoir's silt and run-off issues.

This makes total sense. The kind of sediment deposition that would make water treatment a problem would have to be massive. Unless MTBing results in a WWI trench (which it doesn't) for the entire park, AND every bit of sediment from the trail made its way into the reservoir--which is a sci-fi stretch since the trail is quite far away from the reservoir in most spots, I can't see mountain bike trails having much effect on the water quality. As for runoff, it would be interesting to see what the primary pollutants are--my guess is motor oil/antifreeze from leaky cars, and not chain lube:rolleyes:.

As much as I usually ignore knee-jerk, emotional soundbites, I'll take the bait. I've never heard anyone say to a developer "All they care about is money . . . hell, they'd build a development on George Washington's grave."

[bunky]

Sent to Mayor, Council Pres and Mary Pat.

You know, it's not bad enough you get busted on an open stretch of highway while seeing maniacs driving 90 on I-270 at rush hour. Nor is it bad enough getting stationary speeding tickets in neioghborhoods where people are shooting each other.

No, now you have to look out for Ranger Rick jumping out from behind a bush and sticking you with a $100 Having Fun Tax to make up for a certain elected official's orgy of gift-card misappropriation. And with costly bikes and money to spend, boy aren't we a bunch of easy marks.

I tell you--New Hampshire is looking better every day.

[crack monkey]

That Kurt guy appears to be a real douche. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so imflammatory said about IMBA.

[bunky]

That Kurt guy appears to be a real douche. I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so imflammatory said about IMBA.

Wake-Tink is going to be too soggy to ride tonight. Anybody want to ride down to Mt Vernon? I've got to practice my wheelie-drops and tracks stands and could use someting large and monument-like to practice on.

[jmblur]

Well, clearly trail users kicking up a bit of dust are FAR more detrimental to the water supply than the Pine Ridge golf course (which is situated on a peninsula in the reservoir, with at LEAST 8 holes leading right up to the water's edge), or the 4 other golf courses (Towson, Hillendale, Longview, and Hunt Valley Inn) within a mile of the reservoir.

Or the acres of farms both in the immediate area around the reservoir and upstream at patchwork farms.

Or the shopping centers just over a mile from the reservoir and right along one of the feeder streams.

Blaming the silt issues at loch raven on the tiny amount of erosion on singletrack trails (which, at 1 foot wide, is only 1.2 acres of "exposed dirt" per 10 miles) is like blaming a flood on a single raindrop. [not as eloquent as the gnat flatulence quote, I know!]

Between the baseless accusations, questionable logic, and inflammatory statements, this campaign against mountain bikers in particular and trail users in general smacks of a personal vendetta rather than an action in the best interest of the citizenship of Baltimore and Maryland.

/crossposted to baltimore sun article - minus the gnat flatulence reference.

[bunky]

Blaming the silt issues at loch raven on the tiny amount of erosion on singletrack trails (which, at 1 foot wide, is only 1.2 acres of "exposed dirt" per 10 miles) is like blaming a flood on a single raindrop. [not as eloquent as the gnat flatulence quote, I know!]

Kind of reminds me of "environmental concerns" being the basis for killing a certain bike path on a certain inter-county connector.

[eloach]

I love the line about riding over George Washington's grave. Some one tell that guy that over here in VA we will not be riding over George Washington's grave because there will be HOT lanes on top of it.

[patrickgmiller]

I love the line about riding over George Washington's grave. Some one tell that guy that over here in VA we will not be riding over George Washington's grave because there will be HOT lanes on top of it.

The George Washington grave line is highly offensive, especially to those who have served or have family or loved ones serving in the military.

Let Mr Kocher know what you think of his quotation: Kurt.Kocher@baltimorecity.gov

Don't forget to CC:
mayor@baltimorecity.gov
Stephanie.Rawlings-Blake@baltimorecity.gov
MaryPat.Clarke@baltimorecity.gov

[eloach]

I think "Kurt" has demonstrated by his comments to the press that he is not an unbiased stewart of the land, that he has a grudge against certain user groups for whatever personal reason, and that he is not scientifically or emotionally competent to manage the land surrounding the facility.

Most public employees are NOT allowed (it's in the packets you read when you take the job) to make that type of "hate" comment to the press, especially in the performance of their public duties and about a "group" of citizens. In fact, I would think such a comment would be enough to have him removed from the position. He stereo typed and disparaged an entire class of people based on the fact that they happen to ride a particular style of bike. What's next? Sex or race or color of jacket? The fellow needs to be removed.

[Jackson]

The George Washington grave line is highly offensive, especially to those who have served or have family or loved ones serving in the military.

Let Mr Kocher know what you think of his quotation: Kurt.Kocher@baltimorecity.gov

Don't forget to CC:
mayor@baltimorecity.gov
Stephanie.Rawlings-Blake@baltimorecity.gov
MaryPat.Clarke@baltimorecity.gov

I would add this email as well:

DavidE.Scott@baltimorecity.gov

Director of Public Works

[eloach]

The George Washington grave line is highly offensive, especially to those who have served or have family or loved ones serving in the military.

Let Mr Kocher know what you think of his quotation: Kurt.Kocher@baltimorecity.gov

Don't forget to CC:
mayor@baltimorecity.gov
Stephanie.Rawlings-Blake@baltimorecity.gov
MaryPat.Clarke@baltimorecity.gov

It's just plain offensive, to anyone. Unelected public officials are not normally allowed to do that, usually on pain of dismissal.

What I don't quite get from all of this is -
Are folks riding POSTED "NO BIKES" trails? Or, are the trails NOT POSTED and they have been handing out tickets? If the trails are not posted, how was anyone supposed to know that "bikes don't belong"? Something is not quite adding up about all this.

[crack monkey]

If you look at the first page, the Balt. County website says the trails are open.

But, Balt. City owns the land and has other ideas.

But how the heck are trail users supposed to know that?

[riderx]

Has anyone seen this press release (http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/downloads/1209/121009_MountainBikingPress.pdf) from DPW?

WOW! That's not MTB damage in the photo :bangshead:

[tompkinsbj]

I think they might have gotten a few emails and are in CYA mode...

[jmblur]

That looks like somebody cut in steps on a steep portion to make HIKING easier. how is a wheel even supposed to make that kind of damage?

Regardless, there's clearly something else going on here - there's no way "erosion from trails" is threatening the water supply - the amount of erosion material making it to the reservoir would have to be astronomical.

[mtbGreg]

That looks like somebody cut in steps on a steep portion to make HIKING easier. how is a wheel even supposed to make that kind of damage?

Exactly! The level of ignorance coming from DPW is infuriating, and I'm just a guy watching from the sidelines, besides sending the obligatory emails. My respect (and sympathy) for Eric and other trail liaisons has grown exponentially in the past day or two.

[patrickgmiller]

Keep the emails coming!

Mayor Dixon has shown a real willingness to hear our side and has agreed to meet with representatives from the mountain bike community on Monday.

Let her know what you think of this press release from DPW.
http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/downloads/1209/121009_MountainBikingPress.pdf

This has been a successful action alert so far, don't slow down. If you have emailed her once with the IMBA form, send another personal email:
Kurt.Kocher@baltimorecity.gov
mayor@baltimorecity.gov
DavidE.Scott@baltimorecity.gov
Stephanie.Rawlings-Blake@baltimorecity.gov
MaryPat.Clarke@baltimorecity.gov

[rciracing]

Has anyone seen this press release (http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/downloads/1209/121009_MountainBikingPress.pdf) from DPW?

WOW! That's not MTB damage in the photo :bangshead:

Where at Loch Raven is that picture from? Anyone recognize it?

[wrench177]

Has anyone seen this press release (http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/downloads/1209/121009_MountainBikingPress.pdf) from DPW?

WOW! That's not MTB damage in the photo :bangshead:
I just sent another letter of disgust when I saw this piece of work. Who the hell does this guy think he is?

Stairs....I mean really.....bikers did that....please.

[tuba_transport]

I just got off the phone with Kurt Kocher about Loch Raven. At length we discussed the benefits that MORE and IMBA could have with the trail system at Loch Raven. On the phone I explained that the photo was obviously not that of a biker. The closest I could guess is maybe some kids built ramps and used the steps to shuttle bikes back up the trail but that is not likely the cause.

He said he was given a whole CD of photos labeled MTB Damage. I asked if the photos could be made more public and he might be open to the idea.

Kurt Kocher also seemed very open to the idea of speaking to Pres Jason Stoner. He even mentioned that he owns a bike or two which could use some dusting off. I said Stoner would likely be more than willing to go for a MTB ride with him and discuss ways we can help. He said perhaps that could happen.

From my phone conversation is sounds like Loch Raven has poorly laid out and maintained trails which do not drain properly. I tried to explain that with volunteer hours the location could made much more friendly to his water supply and law enforcement requirements.

Regarding people being ticketed he said the people ticketed were because of night riding. Which we all know is a source of contention. Night riding MUST be approved at all our riding locations. Riding there at night without approval is asking for trouble.

He also mentioned rogue jumps. Yet another source of contention. Build them without prior approval and land managers get angry.

So, Pres Stoner. If ya get time soon. Give Kocher a phone call. His number is in the press release he sent out.

[Jackson]

He said he was given a whole CD of photos labeled MTB Damage. I asked if the photos could be made more public and he might be open to the idea.



I'm glad he might be open to the idea. It's spelled FOIA.

[CRAIG2]

I just sent another letter of disgust when I saw this piece of work. Who the hell does this guy think he is?

Stairs....I mean really.....bikers did that....please.

Yeah, I'd really like to hear what they think a mountain bike tire might look like. :rolleyes:

[jmblur]

Yeah, I'd really like to hear what they think a mountain bike tire might look like. :rolleyes:

I found the bastid behind the trail damage!

http://www.macalester.edu/mathcs/images/IMG_1726crop.PRES.edited.jpg

[tuba_transport]

I'm glad he might be open to the idea. It's spelled FOIA.

From speaking to him it seems obvious that they are getting lots of communications which are supportive of our cause. It also appeared that he is feeling very defensive. I get the impression that this is not the case of a closed minded anti-MTB zealot. I got the distinct impression that this is more the case of an underinformed individual basing his decisions on misunderstanding.

The gist of his argument is that there are rules in place from the 1998 policy which are not being followed. They have been unenforced for 11 years and now he has picked it up as one of his personal projects. A better solution is going to be revision of the policy. If someone could take on Loch Raven as a liaison and some trail days could be on the calendar for next year with Kocher's positive involvement then I think there is an opportunity there instead of a battle.

He was adamant about Loch Raven not being designated as a Park. It is a public watershed which I understand affects how it is managed?

But in the end this is going to better solved with honey than vinegar.

[riderx]

If someone could take on Loch Raven as a liaison and some trail days could be on the calendar for next year with Kocher's positive involvement then I think there is an opportunity there instead of a battle.That has been in place since the '98 agreement. Of course, the only trails that are allowed to be worked on during the official trail maintenance days are the fireroads which were deemed authorized.

Thanks for calling and provided this additional info.

[allroy]

Loch Raven was originally maintained by MAMBO (Mid-Atlantic Mountain Bike Organization). They formed in response to the closure of Gunpowder Falls which is in that same general area. Last year MAMBO officially rolled into MORE and we adopted the Loch Raven trail system. We have two trail liaisons and do have scheduled trail days there. Those same liaisons are some of the same people helping to spearhead this. It is much more important to have local people speaking with the decision-makers. I have sent letters and emails on MORE's behalf explaining who we are, other parks we've worked with including Watersheds and sensitive areas throughout MD and VA and how we can work together. Currently our local mountain bike representatives are doing an amazing job coordinating such a large and fast moving issue, with me getting involved it would only confuse the situation and who the officials should be talking with. If it gets to a point they feel I should be involved (Good or Bad) I will do everything I can to help.

Hopefully this helps show what we in the mountain bike community can do with a large unified voice. We still have a long ways to go but being able to mobilize as quickly as we have and getting the positive responses we've been getting is a great start.

Thanks everyone for you support.
-Jason


If someone could take on Loch Raven as a liaison and some trail days could be on the calendar for next year with Kocher's positive involvement then I think there is an opportunity there instead of a battle.

[skijim668]

Where at Loch Raven is that picture from? Anyone recognize it?

Not completely sure but it looks like around Seminary rd. and the creek crossing.

[tuba_transport]

We have two trail liaisons and do have scheduled trail days there. Those same liaisons are some of the same people helping to spearhead this. It is much more important to have local people speaking with the decision-makers.

...


-Jason

I called as part of the communication campaign. I honestly did not expect to speak with him personally. I expected the call to be notated and receive a swift hang up. I was asked what I was calling about and was then transferred. The person answering the transfer was Kocher himself.

I spoke at length and he did not come across as someone who just hangs up the phone with a "NO!". He does have some solid footing in his positions. But I don't think this will end as poorly as some may have thought at first.

I also asked about budget concerns and he said additional Rangers are paid for out of Homeland Security money. My impression is that there is too much Homeland Security money being thrown around and they are trying to find ways to spend it all. Perhaps singletrack trail enhancements and added patrols could funnel some of that money into MORE and community goodwill instead of additional Rangers and tension.

Just trying to hunt for a silver lining.

[eloach]

Has anyone seen this press release (http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/downloads/1209/121009_MountainBikingPress.pdf) from DPW?

WOW! That's not MTB damage in the photo :bangshead:

What is that? A horse trail with horse damage? I don't even think hikers would need "cut steps" like that and those would be detrimental to mountain biking. I am not even sure horses would cause that much stepping. It would take a lot of regular horse usage, not occasional. It almost looks like someone purposely created it. Would someone cut that to make a trail to fish or something???

[CRAIG2]

I also asked about budget concerns and he said additional Rangers are paid for out of Homeland Security money. My impression is that there is too much Homeland Security money being thrown around and they are trying to find ways to spend it all.

You're probably warmer than you might think - in the 13 or so years that I've worked with the Government (all sorts of agencies), I can tell you that the goal (or one of the goals) is to pretty much spend every last cent allocated so that they have justification to ask for more money the next year. That's just the nature of the beast. People that try to say "Gee, I think we were given a little too much money this year, we should ask for less next year" are not popular. This is why Uncle always goes on such a rabid spending spree every September. :rolleyes: The silver lining is that this makes for very good business - well, for me at least. :D

(Note: this is not meant to be a politically charged comment / post.)

[eloach]

He said he was given a whole CD of photos labeled MTB Damage. I asked if the photos could be made more public and he might be open to the idea.


Boy, that surely smacks of some party with a selfish "agenda". Maybe that party created the steps. The local trail liaisons could go and look at the "damage" and fairly access if it had been built or caused by rouge bikers. If it's for a shuttle, that should be obvious upon inspection.

[eloach]

You're probably warmer than you might think - in the 13 or so years that I've worked with the Government (all sorts of agencies), I can tell you that the goal (or one of the goals) is to pretty much spend every last cent allocated so that they have justification to ask for more money the next year. That's just the nature of the beast. People that try to say "Gee, I think we were given a little too much money this year, we should ask for less next year" are not popular. This is why Uncle always goes on such a rabid spending spree every September. :rolleyes: The silver lining is that this makes for very good business - well, for me at least. :D

(Note: this is not meant to be a politically charged comment / post.)

The main cause of that problem is the statutory rules about carrying funds forward from one year to the next and the need to forecast a budget for appropriations long before (two years) you will spend the money. It's not really possible to accurately forecast either the EXACT needs or the EXACT price and no one wants to come up short and I don't think the public wants many agencies coming up short (although they might like a few of them to :rolleyes:) . Often, money does go back to the treasury. Also, a good part of the EOFY spending comes from:
1- Holding the money to get maximum value for it (tech prices drop over time)
and
2 - Holding the money to be SURE that it doesn't run out due to an unforeseen circumstance.

[jvanbrecht]

All federal agencies must provide OMB a budget, I forget the exhibit number. Money not spent is not allocated in the following fiscal year. It really has nothing to do with asking for a larger budget, but ut does of course limit the request for a larger budget if you do not spendwhat you have.

Moneys allocated by DHS must be earmarked for national security purposes (it's a stretch, but any type if law enforcement is considered nation security purposes, that also includes vehicles). It would be a huge stretch to use Dhs moneys for trails.

[patrickgmiller]

Story from WJZ TV last night:
http://wjz.com/local/loch.raven.reservoir.2.1363381.html

If folks want to debate the mechanics of municipal, state, or federal budgeting, please start a new thread.

[riderx]

WJZ had a piece on last night including an interview with Mr. Kocher. Video
here (http://wjz.com/video/?id=64315@wjz.dayport.com)

[old_bashturd]

Baltimore Sun article;

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/outdoors/bal-md.sp.mountainbike10dec10,0,869548. story

[CRAIG2]

It really has nothing to do with asking for a larger budget, ... .

Ok, if you think so... :rolleyes::D

[CRAIG2]

Baltimore Sun article;

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/outdoors/bal-md.sp.mountainbike10dec10,0,869548. story

Interesting. So, how exactly are they measuring the impact on the reservoir itself that mountain biking is supposedly causing?

[tuba_transport]

Interesting. So, how exactly are they measuring the impact on the reservoir itself that mountain biking is supposedly causing?

When I spoke to Kocher and asked him about the erosion impact he cites it became obvious that it was a red herring. He was under informed on the point and it rang of a talking point moreso than a legitimate concern.

I think there were some jumps they found that ticked them off. That along with needing to spend Homeland Security money. I am not sure what came first. I suspect that they hired more Park Rangers out of Homeland Security moneys and those Rangers went out looking for stuff to report back. They found some jumps and tire tracks in the woods and alerted Kocher who was up their command chain.

There is an outdated policy in the books from 1998 which should be addressed. It basically says to stick to fireroads. Anyone planning to attend the public meeting and speaking about Loch Raven REALLY NEEDS TO READ THE 1998 POLICY. That is Kocher's strongest footing. The policy needs to be updated. MORE can do a lot to help turn this watershed into a community asset with proper singletrack instead of it de-evolving into wasted space patrolled by a dozen Rangers carrying no trespassing signs.

The sediment issue is simply a poor attempt at justification for shutting people out of the trees. Working WITH the mountain biking community Kocher can be presented with an opportunity to bring a legitimate outdoor activity to the citizens of that local area.

In the end I think we have to keep something in mind. Kocher has power and influence on this land. Even if we convince those above him to open it up we will need to deal with Kocher after we come in and fix some of the problems some rogue individuals may have caused. It will be to our benefit if Kocher is more ally then enemy.

One final note regarding the new Park Rangers and HS moneys. He mentioned that the Rangers are required to have a college degree in a pertinent natural science. So these are not just hourlys who lost their jobs at Burger King. I would suspect that a dozen new degree holding salaried Park Rangers are not cheap. Because he had mentioned earlier budget cutbacks and then just 20 seconds later said they were hiring a dozen Rangers I asked about how they pay for them. He said Homeland Security money is much more readily available.

Seems unfortunate that Loch Raven can be allocated a dozen Rangers while Fountainhead has difficulty even having enough to keep it open in the winter or keeping the trail conditions phone line running.

[Mrs. Outlaw]

We had a RLAG co-ed ride there and it attracted about 48 people. It would be a shame to lose such a fun and beautiful place to ride.

Please take the time to send e-mails and attend the meeting!

[CRAIG2]

When I spoke to Kocher and asked him about the erosion impact he cites it became obvious that it was a red herring. He was under informed on the point and it rang of a talking point moreso than a legitimate concern.

I think there were some jumps they found that ticked them off. That along with needing to spend Homeland Security money. I am not sure what came first. I suspect that they hired more Park Rangers out of Homeland Security moneys and those Rangers went out looking for stuff to report back. They found some jumps and tire tracks in the woods and alerted Kocher who was up their command chain.

There is an outdated policy in the books from 1998 which should be addressed. It basically says to stick to fireroads. Anyone planning to attend the public meeting and speaking about Loch Raven REALLY NEEDS TO READ THE 1998 POLICY. That is Kocher's strongest footing. The policy needs to be updated. MORE can do a lot to help turn this watershed into a community asset with proper singletrack instead of it de-evolving into wasted space patrolled by a dozen Rangers carrying no trespassing signs.

The sediment issue is simply a poor attempt at justification for shutting people out of the trees. Working WITH the mountain biking community Kocher can be presented with an opportunity to bring a legitimate outdoor activity to the citizens of that local area.

In the end I think we have to keep something in mind. Kocher has power and influence on this land. Even if we convince those above him to open it up we will need to deal with Kocher after we come in and fix some of the problems some rogue individuals may have caused. It will be to our benefit if Kocher is more ally then enemy.

One final note regarding the new Park Rangers and HS moneys. He mentioned that the Rangers are required to have a college degree in a pertinent natural science. So these are not just hourlys who lost their jobs at Burger King. I would suspect that a dozen new degree holding salaried Park Rangers are not cheap. Because he had mentioned earlier budget cutbacks and then just 20 seconds later said they were hiring a dozen Rangers I asked about how they pay for them. He said Homeland Security money is much more readily available.

Seems unfortunate that Loch Raven can be allocated a dozen Rangers while Fountainhead has difficulty even having enough to keep it open in the winter or keeping the trail conditions phone line running.

Cool. Good information - yeah, I kind of suspected the environmental impact excuse was a little BS - well, unless there's a crowd of downhillers leaving cans of Red Bull strewn across the trails. :D

But no, rangers are not cheap - and I'm ok with that. Though, it'd be nice if there were more of them, particularly in places that could benefit.

[dirtychain]

I heard they did a small piece regarding our situation on WJZ (channel 13) on last night's 11:00 news. Unfortunately I missed it. Here's a link to the piece....

http://wjz.com/local/loch.raven.reservoir.2.1363381.html

[kuru]

From speaking to him it seems obvious that they are getting lots of communications which are supportive of our cause. It also appeared that he is feeling very defensive. I get the impression that this is not the case of a closed minded anti-MTB zealot. I got the distinct impression that this is more the case of an underinformed individual basing his decisions on misunderstanding.

The gist of his argument is that there are rules in place from the 1998 policy which are not being followed. They have been unenforced for 11 years and now he has picked it up as one of his personal projects. A better solution is going to be revision of the policy. If someone could take on Loch Raven as a liaison and some trail days could be on the calendar for next year with Kocher's positive involvement then I think there is an opportunity there instead of a battle.

He was adamant about Loch Raven not being designated as a Park. It is a public watershed which I understand affects how it is managed?

But in the end this is going to better solved with honey than vinegar.

There seems to be a disconnect between his public comments and what you report from your conversation with him. The guy uses wild exagerations about riding on George Washington's grave but then plays some poor misinformed public servent schtick when you speak on the telephone with him. I know you want to see a silver lining but come on.

[jvanbrecht]

My guess is the comments that the guy made were prior to his conversation with Tuba, using information provided to him, most likely from a very biased source. I have seen that happen alot, especially in the IT security industry, the gov spokespeople love to use information that makes things sound really really bad, but that info is of course provided by those same entities trying to sell products and solutions to the gov to solve those problems...

[kuru]

My guess is the comments that the guy made were prior to his conversation with Tuba, using information provided to him, most likely from a very biased source. I have seen that happen alot, especially in the IT security industry, the gov spokespeople love to use information that makes things sound really really bad, but that info is of course provided by those same entities trying to sell products and solutions to the gov to solve those problems...

Thanks for the guess but the guy has been slowly but steadily ratcheting up the anti-bike rhetoric. That photo that Tuba talked to him about? It is now "confirmed" mountain biking related damage according to an email response I received from him today.

[patrickgmiller]

From Frank Maguire, our IMBA Regional Director:

"And so this now available for public info, Mr. Kocher has issued an apology for his statements to us at IMBA. Here's the text:

"I personally apologize for any unintended remarks that I have made. Your organization does lots of good work on behalf of trail maintenance and as an advocate for a good sport. Sometimes those words get excluded from articles and sometimes one says something in a poor train of thought which is not intended at all.""

[kuru]

From Frank Maguire, our IMBA Regional Director:

"And so this now available for public info, Mr. Kocher has issued an apology for his statements to us at IMBA. Here's the text:

"I personally apologize for any unintended remarks that I have made. Your organization does lots of good work on behalf of trail maintenance and as an advocate for a good sport. Sometimes those words get excluded from articles and sometimes one says something in a poor train of thought which is not intended at all.""


Public insults followed up with private apologies...yeah that'll help:rolleyes:

[patrickgmiller]

We are posting in order to make them public.

[kuru]

We are posting in order to make them public.

Public to whom? Anything short of a retraction in the Baltimore Sun is meaningless. Those non-biking people who read his remarks in the newspaper don't read your forums here. They still think Loch Raven is full of bike riding savages who are willing to defile national shrines if it looks like a good time.

[riderx]

Public to whom? Anything short of a retraction in the Baltimore Sun is meaningless. Those non-biking people who read his remarks in the newspaper don't read your forums here. They still think Loch Raven is full of bike riding savages who are willing to defile national shrines if it looks like a good time.
I agree that a retraction printed in the Sun paper would be most effective but Mr. Kocher does not have control over what goes in the paper. Maybe you can contact the reporter who did the initial story and ask them to follow up with him to see if that would yield a printed correction or even a follow up story.

Look at it this way: This is at least a small bit of progress. Mr. Kocher must realize that our user group will not be mischaracterized without a big reaction. Remember, we will need to work with him and others in the City to reverse the current course of action. This is just the beginning of the dialog. The more we educate and make City officials understand the true facts of our impact on trails, the benefits we can bring to the table and our positions on the land use, the better off we will be in the long run.

[dirtychain]

Apparently he's also a spokesman for the DPW. I've seen him on the news multiple times this week regarding ruptured water mains in Dundalk hon! My wife thought I was nuts when I yelled "THATS THE GUY !"

[kuru]

I agree that a retraction printed in the Sun paper would be most effective but Mr. Kocher does not have control over what goes in the paper. Maybe you can contact the reporter who did the initial story and ask them to follow up with him to see if that would yield a printed correction or even a follow up story.

Look at it this way: This is at least a small bit of progress. Mr. Kocher must realize that our user group will not be mischaracterized without a big reaction. Remember, we will need to work with him and others in the City to reverse the current course of action. This is just the beginning of the dialog. The more we educate and make City officials understand the true facts of our impact on trails, the benefits we can bring to the table and our positions on the land use, the better off we will be in the long run.

I agree with most of what you say except that it is Mr. Kocher's responsibility to clear the record on his remarks.

I'm not sure about the need to work with Kocher either. Other than cheif spokesman for DPW, what are his responsibilities? In the govt agency I work the spokespeople are not decision makers, they just put a positive spin on decisions made by others.

[patrickgmiller]

MORE and IMBA reps have a meeting with Mayor Dixon on Monday, who has so far seemed very reasonable. Let's see what she says.

Hope to see you at REI on Monday evening.

[FatBob]

This is interesting, and quite a coincidence. I follow several mountain bike forums and stumbled upon this thread (http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/general-discussion/44923-claremont-ticketing-night.html)from Southern California.

I wonder if IMBA has any data showing the trend of local governments enforcing outdated or otherwise overlooked laws recently.

As I stated on SoCal board with house values plummeting and property taxes following suit, I wonder what the impact is on local government budgets. Are the local authorities trying to justify their existence, or is this just an attempt to raise revenue. Clearly these "laws" were not enforced in the past and all of the sudden there are $100 a pop tickets being issued on both coasts and who knows where else inbetween.

[nocro]

He said he was given a whole CD of photos labeled MTB Damage.

I labelled it, "Environmental Damage due to development in the Watershed":

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&t=h&ll=39.462754,-76.580855&spn=0.005931,0.009645&z=17

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&ll=39.44418,-76.579213&spn=0.011865,0.01929&t=h&z=16

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&ll=39.449719,-76.586503&spn=0.002966,0.004823&t=h&z=18

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&ll=39.464431,-76.572749&spn=0.002965,0.004823&t=h&z=18

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&ll=39.461958,-76.555449&spn=0.005931,0.009645&t=h&z=17

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=loch+raven+watershed&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=loch+raven+watershed&hnear=Montgomery+Village,+MD&ll=39.491622,-76.5933&spn=0.005928,0.009645&t=h&z=17

I mean, check out that, "Vegetation has been destroyed, trees damaged, ramps built and the resulting erosion is threatening our drinking water supply."

Did you see the honeycombs in the woods that have been created? There are ramps that go clear across the watershed, the audacity of those bastards.

I'm psyched that he is going to clean up this mess so we'll have access to those fire roads.

Let me guess that he says that environmental impact reduction steps have been taken to address the bridges, and the houses, and the roads, and the shooting range, and the golf courses.

BTW, has anyone invited Mr. Kocher to join the MORE board as encouragement to dust off his bike?

[FatBob]

Problem is you're trying to apply logic, this is a revenue issue.

Bikers, hikers, trail users do not pay to ride the trail (well, yes they pay taxes but that's not the point). There is no additional revenue brought in for local government by cyclist.

Golfers on the other hand, have to pay to play golf, and to belong to a country club is $$$. The CC in turn has to pay property tax, pay roll tax, state tax.... you get the picture.

So never mind that metric tons of hazardous fertilizers are being washed into the water system to maintain the lush greens. It's the 2.5" pneumatic tires causing all the polution, silt and run off into the water system. Citizens can be outraged by the minority of "kids" riding their bikes in the woods and causing trouble, Golfers can continue to polute the water system, and land managers can justify their salaries for another couple of years. It's a win/win.... unless you're one of those x-games redbull, grave stompin', "bikers"..... be gone already!

[nocro]

Problem is you're trying to apply logic, this is a revenue issue.


My point is, if I handed you a CD labeled, "Photos of FatBob's Daughter" and you looked at it, you would laugh and say, "that's not my daughter, I don't even have a daughter. But wow!"

But if I handed Denis a CD labeled, "Photos of FatBob's Daughter" you would have yourself a new riding partner who always insisted on picking you up at your house. :p

The man has provided limited data to the discussion, and that data is of dubious correlation to the actual presence of mountain bike trails. I have attempted to contribute some additional data which is probably not useful and will likely be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant.

[skijim668]

Probably totally irrelevant.

For informational purposes.

Do not forget about the 25,000 gallon fuel spill in Jackson ( a couple miles away from Loch raven).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4183/is_20060428/ai_n16220455/

[FatBob]

My point is, if I handed you a CD labeled, "Photos of FatBob's Daughter" and you looked at it, you would laugh and say, "that's not my daughter, I don't even have a daughter. But wow!"

But if I handed Denis a CD labeled, "Photos of FatBob's Daughter" you would have yourself a new riding partner who always insisted on picking you up at your house. :p

The man has provided limited data to the discussion, and that data is of dubious correlation to the actual presence of mountain bike trails. I have attempted to contribute some additional data which is probably not useful and will likely be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant.

I got what you were say'n, I was trying to be sarcastic... tongue & cheek. DPW clearly don't give a rat's red arse about the environmental impact of cyclists @ Loch Raven, otherwise there would be an environmental impact study in tow. As has been mentioned before, the eco card was simply played as an effective tool to take to supervisors and other such figure heads. Show them some glossy 8x10's of "trail destruction" and the case is closed in the mind of DPW & city officials.

What wasn't/isn't counted on is an articulate, well educated group of activists who can get things done. I suspect the reason that IMBA was bashed is the fear of an international group with the power of political lobby & influence folks higher than the pay grade of the folks in the DPW's.

I have some video of my daughter @ this weekends x-mas festival, but I'm not sure anyone wants to see her PK-4 class singing jingle bells.... let me know

[nocro]

I got what you were say'n, I was trying to be sarcastic... tongue & cheek. DPW clearly don't give a rat's red arse about the environmental impact of cyclists @ Loch Raven, otherwise there would be an environmental impact study in tow. As has been mentioned before, the eco card was simply played as an effective tool to take to supervisors and other such figure heads. Show them some glossy 8x10's of "trail destruction" and the case is closed in the mind of DPW & city officials.

What wasn't/isn't counted on is an articulate, well educated group of activists who can get things done. I suspect the reason that IMBA was bashed is the fear of an international group with the power of political lobby & influence folks higher than the pay grade of the folks in the DPW's.

I have some video of my daughter @ this weekends x-mas festival, but I'm not sure anyone wants to see her PK-4 class singing jingle bells.... let me know

I was just piling on. :thumbsup: (and seizing an opportunity for a pot shot at Denis since I can't beat him at the SM100!)

As far as Jingle Bells, Post it! Just not anything from the xxx-mas party. :nono: This is a family oriented site.

I'm with you. DPW rep was lobbing hand grenades at the invading Czech Bike team, but didn't realize the well funded IMBA based in Colorado, U.S. of A has a substantial membership right here in Maryland. Likewise, that you can't just pontificate about George Washington's grave, instruct the reporter, "don't use that," and have your decree followed.

[kevin29r]

There's another article by the Baltimore Sun today. A few familiar names are mentioned, and the tone of the article is more positive. I believe an equitable solution can be worked out that will protect the reservoir, trails, and users, provided we continue to speak up in a respectful manner.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/outdoors/bal-sp.thomson13dec13,0,1181092.story

[jmolsonnv]

MORE and IMBA reps have a meeting with Mayor Dixon on Monday, who has so far seemed very reasonable. Let's see what she says.

Hope to see you at REI on Monday evening.

Just wanted to remind anyone.

[chaostactics]

Try no to bring up the trial ehy?

[kuru]

Just wanted to remind anyone.

Is there any word on who might be there representing the City of Baltimore?

[tsunayoshi]

There's another article by the Baltimore Sun today. A few familiar names are mentioned, and the tone of the article is more positive. I believe an equitable solution can be worked out that will protect the reservoir, trails, and users, provided we continue to speak up in a respectful manner.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/outdoors/bal-sp.thomson13dec13,0,1181092.story
That article is much more positive. Too bad the 1st article had to ever come out.

Major points were given to MORE, as well as highlighting the successful night riding programs in MD.

[Mrs. Outlaw]

Wow, what a fantastic turn-out! Hugh thanks to the crew spearheading the effort. I left the meeting hopeful that a compromise can be reached. :thumbsup:

[riderx]

Big thanks to everyone who showed up last night (over 200 people!). And extra thanks to those who met with City officials and staff yesterday to begin the process of revisiting the old management plan.

This is just the start, so stay motivated and get your other riding friends involved if they aren't already.

[kuru]

Yes, positive news. We responded to negative news with complaints so we should respond to the positive news too. A simple thank you for hearing us goes a long way.

And another thanks to those who took the time to lead this effort.

[Briank10]

Just forwarding this message....

A member Contacted the Towson Chamber of Commerce, Nancy Hafford. She requested that I send her all information about our problem in the Watershed. I don't have much information. If anyone knows the IMBA or MORE people, please have them send her the information. The chamber email on their website will work, that is how I cont...acted her. She is a terrific person, incredible communtiy activist and she knows EVERYONE. I would guess somehow she can help us. She is an athlete and supports our sport.

[patrickgmiller]

Anyone have any photos from last night of the crowd at REI?

[riderx]

For those who couldn't make it, Jim Bole has put together a 5 minute video from last night's meeting. You can get a good sense of the crowd here.

YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSmGGD1rNo)

[nocro]

For those who couldn't make it, Jim Bole has put together a 5 minute video from last night's meeting. You can get a good sense of the crowd here.

YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnSmGGD1rNo)


Good stuff. Glad to hear the Mayor's office is addressing real issues and not blaming the sediment in the watershed on trail "honeycombs".

As was mentioned in the video, it would be a positive thing to follow up with the Mayor's office with a thank you e-mail for providing a meeting.

[rciracing]

Dear Mountain Biking Enthusiast:



Thank you for your recent correspondence to Mayor Sheila Dixon.



Baltimore City’s three reservoirs provide 1.8 million customers the best quality drinking water every day. In order to do this we must continually protect these bodies of water from degradation and sedimentation. Runoff of soil into Loch Raven, Prettyboy and Liberty not only damages water quality, it also reduces the amount of water available for use. Additionally water becomes more difficult and more expensive to treat if it is laden with silt.



There are many threats to our reservoirs including over-browsing by deer, invasive plants and aquatic life, road salt and septic issues. Mountain bikes have created their own set of problems which is why a Mountain Bike Plan was agreed upon and adopted by both the Mountain Biking Community and the City of Baltimore in 1998. This plan lays out clear guidelines and responsibilities for all parties to follow so that recreational biking can occur without negative impacts on our drinking water.



Unfortunately the approved trails – the Woods Roads – were not sufficient for many and single-tracks now honeycomb Loch Raven. Vegetation has been destroyed, trees damaged, ramps built and the resulting erosion is threatening our drinking water supply.





Baltimore City welcomes the responsible enjoyment of these magnificent lands, but when destruction occurs we must protect them. Our watershed lands are not parks – they are buffers to protect our most precious natural resource. Our regulations must be restrictive for this very reason.



In regards to enforcement there have only been three citations given to mountain bikers this year. All were for after-hours trespassing.



In addition to our recent meeting with representatives from the mountain biking community, we are reconstituting our Mountain Biking Task Force, and our new Watershed Rangers are in the process of clearly marking legal trails and educating bicyclists on the rules and regulations governing our watersheds. Informational kiosks are being refurbished. Maps and other printed guidelines are being prepared. Until all this work is completed, mountain bikers are only being issued warnings if found off of approved trails.



To see the Mountain Biking Plan please go to:

http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/water/rnrs/downloads/A%20Plan%20for%20Mountain%20Biking. pdf





Sincerely,



Kishia L. Powell, P.E.

Head

Bureau of Water and Wastewater

[baltistyle]

is no enforcement? Whenever I am pulled over in a car and given a warning, I usually consider this enforcement. I thought it was stated that no enforcement would be done until the plan was reviewed and re-newed. Ticketing is not the only form of enforcement. If I am scared away because someone tells me I am doing something wrong, this is enforcement of a law, not educating the public? Does anyone else have concern about the new statements made by dpw? Please everybody continue to write your concerns to anyone that will listen. We want to make sure our agenda is clear and we need to let the city know that they will need to stick up to their end of the deal too!

[rciracing]

is no enforcement? Whenever I am pulled over in a car and given a warning, I usually consider this enforcement. I thought it was stated that no enforcement would be done until the plan was reviewed and re-newed. Ticketing is not the only form of enforcement. If I am scared away because someone tells me I am doing something wrong, this is enforcement of a law, not educating the public? Does anyone else have concern about the new statements made by dpw? Please everybody continue to write your concerns to anyone that will listen. We want to make sure our agenda is clear and we need to let the city know that they will need to stick up to their end of the deal too!

We need other trail users to speak up as well. They keep on stressing mountain biker usage.

[punga]

is no enforcement? Whenever I am pulled over in a car and given a warning, I usually consider this enforcement. I thought it was stated that no enforcement would be done until the plan was reviewed and re-newed. Ticketing is not the only form of enforcement. If I am scared away because someone tells me I am doing something wrong, this is enforcement of a law, not educating the public? Does anyone else have concern about the new statements made by dpw? Please everybody continue to write your concerns to anyone that will listen. We want to make sure our agenda is clear and we need to let the city know that they will need to stick up to their end of the deal too!

Actually, that comports with the original agreement that was passed on by Patrick Miller to the rest MORE Board of Directors the day after the meeting:
...Agreements
The existing Plan for Mountain Biking is outdated and a new committee shall be formed to update the Plan
The Committee shall be co-chaired by a representative from MORE and comprised of representatives of DPW, MORE, local residents, and other LR users, as well as Councilwoman Clarke who will represent the City Council
The committee's goal will be to complete the revised Plan before Councilwoman Clarke's hearing in late Feb
Watershed Law Enforcement Officers shall focus on educating trail users until a new Plan is approved
DPW shall implement new signage and maps after the new Plan is approved
DPW may blaze some of the existing woods roads in order to facilitate public safety
Authorized singletrack riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the the table
Authorized night riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the the table
User fees shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the the table...


I don't see this as a change from what has been discussed already with DPW.

p!

[patrickgmiller]

We need other trail users to speak up as well. They keep on stressing mountain biker usage.

100% agree. We can accomplish much more by engaging other trail users and the working group led by Bob Compton has already reached out to numerous other trail users. However, please keep in mind that foot travel is allowed on singletrack--mtb bikes are specifically restricted to "woods roads."

Below is a list of agreements from our recent meeting with Mayor Dixon, DPW reps, and MORE:


The existing Plan for Mountain Biking is outdated and a new committee shall be formed to update the Plan
The Committee shall be co-chaired by a representative from MORE and comprised of representatives of DPW, MORE, local residents, and other LR users, as well as Councilwoman Clarke who will represent the City Council
The Committee's goal will be to complete the revised Plan before Councilwoman Clarke's hearing in late Feb
Watershed Law Enforcement Officers shall focus on educating trail users until a new Plan is approved
DPW shall implement new signage and maps after the new Plan is approved
DPW may blaze some of the existing woods roads in order to facilitate public safety
Authorized singletrack riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table
Authorized night riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table
User fees shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table

[eloach]

100% agree. We can accomplish much more by engaging other trail users and the working group led by Bob Compton has already reached out to numerous other trail users. However, please keep in mind that foot travel is allowed on singletrack--mtb bikes are specifically restricted to "woods roads."

Below is a list of agreements from our recent meeting with Mayor Dixon, DPW reps, and MORE:


The existing Plan for Mountain Biking is outdated and a new committee shall be formed to update the Plan
The Committee shall be co-chaired by a representative from MORE and comprised of representatives of DPW, MORE, local residents, and other LR users, as well as Councilwoman Clarke who will represent the City Council
The Committee's goal will be to complete the revised Plan before Councilwoman Clarke's hearing in late Feb
Watershed Law Enforcement Officers shall focus on educating trail users until a new Plan is approved
DPW shall implement new signage and maps after the new Plan is approved
DPW may blaze some of the existing woods roads in order to facilitate public safety
Authorized singletrack riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table
Authorized night riding shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table
User fees shall be discussed during committee meetings and is considered to be on the table


Thanks for the work put in on this. I don't live near LR, but it is quite nice to see how this is progressing.

[baltistyle]

you highlighted something that had nothing to do with what I meant. The issued warnings are a collection of names and statistics. 37 or more to date. this means 40 incedent of enforcement on MTBrs.

Definition for enforce
- make people obey something: to compel obedience to a law, regulation, or command
- impose something: to impose something by force
- strengthen something: to give strength or emphasis to something

The trails are not marked, so what can be enforced? Can a road with no speed limit sign yield a warning for speed? Well yes i am sure it could, but not if it was agreed that NO enforcement would continue. Please correct me if my logic is wrong.

People that are scared away consider this enforcement. The public has been most confused by this part of the agreement and that is why it is imperative to voice concern to the statement. Anyone that gets a warning for anyhting in life considers it a form of enforcement. The approach is supposed to be "this is why we dont do this" not "you better not do that or else"

They want what they want, and we want to help them get what we want, which is really what they want, clean water.

As for the other trail users. It was stated that there is not a plan for hikers so the trails will remain open until they are closed to all users. This is just a first step. they cant say the trails are the bad part and then just kick off one user group. We are happy to work with anybody that has a vested interest in keeping the reservoir in itscurrent recreational state and I think by show of support, the public Knows that the MTBs are the biggest steward of the trail. Please email info to savetheraven or directly to MORE with names of any and all willing advocates.

[jim]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but is the current etiquette that we stay on fire roads until further notice? I was thinking of heading out this week and I wanted to make sure that I'm not endangering access.

[KGnagey]

this just appeared in my email. Are they taking a firmer stance? I do not get the same feeling of working together with bikers from this email:

Dear Mountain Biking Enthusiast:

Thank you for your recent correspondence to Mayor Sheila Dixon.

Baltimore City’s three reservoirs provide 1.8 million customers the best quality drinking water every day. In order to do this we must continually protect these bodies of water from degradation and sedimentation. Runoff of soil into Loch Raven, Prettyboy and Liberty not only damages water quality, it also reduces the amount of water available for use. Additionally water becomes more difficult and more expensive to treat if it is laden with silt.

There are many threats to our reservoirs including over-browsing by deer, invasive plants and aquatic life, road salt and septic issues. Mountain bikes have created their own set of problems which is why a Mountain Bike Plan was agreed upon and adopted by both the Mountain Biking Community and the City of Baltimore in 1998. This plan lays out clear guidelines and responsibilities for all parties to follow so that recreational biking can occur without negative impacts on our drinking water.

Unfortunately the approved trails – the Woods Roads – were not sufficient for many and single-tracks now honeycomb Loch Raven. Vegetation has been destroyed, trees damaged, ramps built and the resulting erosion is threatening our drinking water supply.

Baltimore City welcomes the responsible enjoyment of these magnificent lands, but when destruction occurs we must protect them. Our watershed lands are not parks – they are buffers to protect our most precious natural resource. Our regulations must be restrictive for this very reason.

In regards to enforcement there have only been three citations given to mountain bikers this year. All were for after-hours trespassing.

In addition to our recent meeting with representatives from the mountain biking community, we are reconstituting our Mountain Biking Task Force, and our new Watershed Rangers are in the process of clearly marking legal trails and educating bicyclists on the rules and regulations governing our watersheds. Informational kiosks are being refurbished. Maps and other printed guidelines are being prepared. Until all this work is completed, mountain bikers are only being issued warnings if found off of approved trails.

To see the Mountain Biking Plan please go to:

http://www.baltimorecity.gov/government/dpw/water/rnrs/downloads/A%20Plan%20for%20Mountain%20Biking. pdf

Sincerely,

Kishia L. Powell, P.E.
Head
Bureau of Water and Wastewater

[monkeybrothers]

I received the same mass email. I am optimistic about the progress that is reported but the communication by the city is at the root of the problem. From the first inappropriate off the cuff comments to this latest email that doesn't effectively convey the tone of the dialoague or provide any up to date information about what the bikers should do (not to mention they cc'd a handful of people in a bunch of emails to send it out--so much for respect of privacy).

This is a big opportunity for the bikers but an even bigger opportunity for the politicians and public officials. Bikers are alphas and decision makers and these public servants are walking a fine line of having a very articulate and vocal community against them. The responsibilty is on the officials to figure this out. I don't expect them to, but they should be way more supportive of the community.

There were similar concerns in the Chicago area in a forest preserve in Palos Park. It was a conflict between various users of the trails and ultimately everyone came out winners. What happens when you don't support the people using the trails and educate them is that they make their own assumptions and create poor trails that don't help anyone. Empower the users and the officials lives get much easier.

It all comes back to communication--there cannot be misinformation and a threatening tone.

"Unfortunately the approved trails – the Woods Roads – were not sufficient for many and single-tracks now honeycomb Loch Raven. Vegetation has been destroyed, trees damaged, ramps built and the resulting erosion is threatening our drinking water supply."

Hats off to the activists such as patrickgmiller for fighting the fight.

I truly think the pressure on the officials to see the opportunity in this situation is crucial. I don't think angry emails will help, but direct, factual communication that consitently reinforces how the officials will benefit by cooperating are needed.

What is most discouraging in this situation is that a group of people brought together by a sport are more capable to solve problems than the officials we elect and the officials they appoint.

I live near Liberty and I can hear the footsteps coming our way with similar concerns. I am hopeful that the efforts of this group will make it better for everyone.

[kdweb]

OK, thinking out loud here but, why are we ( MTB's) being singled out?

Baltimore City welcomes the responsible enjoyment of these magnificent lands, but when destruction occurs we must protect them. Our watershed lands are not parks – they are buffers to protect our most precious natural resource. Our regulations must be restrictive for this very reason.

As I read this in context of what has already happened; that being the cut steps and the other "mountain bike destruction" so conveniently captured on a CD, are any other groups being restricted? Don't get me wrong, I DO want a win-win solution but I can help hearing that they are after us in the tone of that letter. I thought we were innocent until proven guilty in this country?

[kdweb]

And look what just popped into my email...from the Mayor herself AND a nicer tone!


Dear Mountain Biking Enthusiast:



I recently had the pleasure of meeting with a number of you to discuss the issue of mountain biking at our reservoirs. At that meeting it was determined that a new task force would be convened to review and revise the current Mountain Biking Plan. The task force will have broad-based representation so that all interested groups have the opportunity for input. Please note that our Water shed Rangers have not ticketed mountain bikers for going off-trail, they have enforced, and will continue to enforce, all other regulations including after-sunset trespassing.



I thank all of you who have taken the time to write. I am confident that by working together we can protect our reservoir lands as well as enjoy the recreational opportunities they afford. Please share this message with your fellow mountain bikers.



Sincerely,



Sheila Dixon

Mayor

Baltimore City


I'm glad that the Mayor understands that you don't have to have a "Park" in order to have "recreational opportunities" and that they didn't put everyone's email addie on this mass mailing.....Hmmm....do ya think they are readin' our posts??

[CRAIG2]

OK, thinking out loud here but, why are we ( MTB's) being singled out?



We're not. They're singling out over-browsing deer (goddam deer always browsing, never buying anything!), invasive plant life, and aquatic life. Logically, the only solution I can see here is that on future rides we carry 12 gauges and electric charges. That way, our presence is offset by the reduction in those cheap friggin deer, and we take care of those fish, which do nothing but hang out and poop in the water. :thumbsup:

Edit: crossbows and charges. I'm guessing Baltimore would have issues with the lead.

[kdweb]

So I was on that side of town on New Years Day and thought I would go get some first hand knowledge of progress by the City. Seems to me that they have posted a new sign at the Seminary Road drop in by the church as there was no rust on the bolts yet and there was a yellow "Gate 1" sign that I didn't recall from my last ride there. There has not been any change to the bulletin board since it still has the old MAMBO poster up and I didn't see any sign of a map or any new trail blazes.
I did see signs of a ton of hikers though. The trail from the traffic light was a slushly mud pit past the construction site and there was at least 1 set of fat tire tracks. It was so muddy that I walked back out by way of the road and I guess the City doesn't give the help off for Holidays ( or it paying overtime in these hard times) because I saw the "Watershed Ranger" SUV headed into the woods on Seminary.
Well, that's what I saw; any other observations out there?

[Mrs. Outlaw]

Sheila Dixon is resigning. Wonder what this means for Loch Raven.:confused2:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bal-dixon-trial0106,0,1965267.story

[KGnagey]

Stephanie Rawlings-Blake will take over Mrs. Dixon's responsabilities. Looks like she is already on the Loch Raven issue. Below is an email I just received:

January 6, 2010

Dear Citizen:

Thank you for writing me regarding mountain biking in the Loch Raven Watershed. I have been concerned that recently there has been a change of the enforcement policy regarding mountain biking in this area.

In response to this policy change, Councilwoman Mary Pat Clarke introduced City Council Resolution 09-0173R Informational Hearing - Mountain Biking on City Reservoir Watershed Property. This resolution was introduced to bring together relevant City agencies and members of the mountain biking community in order to discuss biking on Baltimore City-owned reservoir watershed property. I believe that a hearing on this issue is an appropriate forum to have a dialogue on how the City can allow access to recreational opportunities in this area while at the same time preserving the quality of the watershed.

This Resolution has been assigned to the Community Development Subcommittee and as of yet, no date for a hearing has been scheduled. Please visit the Baltimore City Council’s website at www.baltimorecitycouncil.com for scheduling updates. When a hearing date is scheduled, I strongly encourage you to attend and testify.

Should you have any additional questions, please contact my Legislative Assistant Kimberly McConkey at (410) 396-4804 or at kimberly.mcconkey@baltimorecity.gov .

Sincerely,

Stephanie Rawlings-Blake
President, Baltimore City Council

[patrickgmiller]

When IMBA and MORE sent out action alerts Council President Rawlings-Blake was on the recipient list and she is aware of both the issue and how passionate LR mountain bikers are.

Over the next month, during transition, we will have to ensure the new Mayor is aware of our agreements thus far and that we can work with her, her staff, DPW and Councilman Mary Pat Clarke to resolve this issue.

[kdweb]

Over the next month, during transition, we will have to ensure the new Mayor is aware of our agreements thus far and that we can work with her, her staff, DPW and Councilman Mary Pat Clarke to resolve this issue.

So that means keep those cards and letters coming while they transition?? IOW, keep up the pace...just checking.........I mean it DOES fall in line with her sig bloc " Res Firma Mitescere Nescit "

[KGnagey]

I mean it DOES fall in line with her sig bloc " Res Firma Mitescere Nescit "

...sorry that's my sig bloc - not Ms. Blake's, but how cool would that be?!?

[kuru]

There has been a lot of discussion about whether Loch Raven is a park or not so I looked at Maryland DNR website and saw that they have Loch Raven, Liberty and Pretty Boy reservoirs listed as public lands.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/central.html

So I thought I'd add it to increase the confusion surrounding the issue :thumbsup:

[KGnagey]

There has been a lot of discussion about whether Loch Raven is a park or not so I looked at Maryland DNR website and saw that they have Loch Raven, Liberty and Pretty Boy reservoirs listed as public lands.

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/publiclands/central.html

So I thought I'd add it to increase the confusion surrounding the issue :thumbsup:

Interesting that biking is not listed as a "What to do" under any of our local reservoirs, but deer hunting is and was recently allowed. I have also NEVER seen a wild turkey in Loch Raven either!

"What To See
Loch Raven CWMA provides habitat for upland and forest wildlife species primarily white-tailed deer, wild turkey, rabbit, squirrel, and songbirds.

What To Do
A specific section of the Loch Raven Reservoir is open to archery hunting for deer only during the regulated hunting season established by the Maryland Wildlife and Heritage Service. Refer to Loch Raven CWMA map for boundaries of deer bow hunting area. Hunters are required to have a permit to access the area. Throughout the year, this area is open to hiking, bird watching, and nature photography.

Area Regulations

Loch Raven CWMA is open to public archery hunting, for deer only, with a permit during the state established bow seasons.
Permits can be obtained on-line and at the Gwynnbrook Wildlife and Heritage Service Office.

No hunting is allowed within fifty feet of high water shoreline.

Hunters must adhere to all regulations established by the City of Baltimore Department of Public Works.

No motorized vehicles are allowed except on hard-surfaced roads.

No fires are permitted on the watershed at any time.

Horseback riding is permitted on fire roads when conditions are not wet or muddy.

Public parking is available along numerous roads throughout watershed property, unless otherwise designated as a no parking zone.

Hunting is permitted only from sunrise to sunset.

Hunting is prohibited on the Torrey C. Brown Rail Trail/NCR Trail.

Non-Hunting Uses
Loch Raven CWMA is open to hiking, horseback riding, nature photography, and bird watching."

[kdweb]

And I'm kinda wondering what's this gonna mean to her?

From what I have heard in a few interviews so far, she seems to be real budget minded....

[b1umb0y]

Hey folks—

After many repeated requests from many different fronts, the task force is finally going to meet on February 25. MORE, SavetheRaven.org, and IMBA have met several times in order to hone our presentation and are excited to get the issues settled.

We'll keep you posted.

Thank you for all your support!

[jmblur]

How'd the meeting go?

[rmac]

here is my take:
When it comes to regulating trail use in the 3 Baltimore City Reservoirs, everyone in the room agreed that we would like a speedy & fair resolution, but the reality is, the new plan is going to take time to develop, approve, and finalize. The objective remains to develop a new plan and present it to the public in an open forum, the goal is to now to have this happen within 90 days.
While the revised plan is being developed, the rangers will continue to focus on educating trail users when it comes to enforcement. They expect respect & professional courtesy from those they may need to educate, so if you find yourself in this situation, keep your cool & be respectful. Restrictions against trespassing at night will continue to be enforced.
Here is what was agreed to from the meeting on Feb 25:

MORE Trail Liaison Bob Compton was named Co-Chair of the Committee.
We will have a working group meeting in two weeks.
We will have a meeting for review by the full task force in thirty days.
The 1998 plan will be the framework for the future plan
The task force will pool the scientific data and maps for a detailed review.
Safety, Education and Enforcement will be negotiated.
The rangers will blaze the "woods roads" as required by the 1998 mountain bike plan.
There will be no enforcement other than watershed regulations until the plan is negotiated and updated.
A time-line of activities will be laid out with a proposed total of 90 days.
The task force will agree as to whether an MOU ( memorandum of understanding ) is needed for a good faith effort.

The next meeting should take place with in 2 weeks and we will post updates as they become available.

[bills]

So I just read the minutes from the 3/10 meeting and it sounds like things are going in the wrong direction. See minutes here - http://savetheraven.com/minutes.php

You put the maps in the table and they said all of these trails are going to disappear!?!

It was my impression that we had a group we could work with, but this group seems stubborn and not interested in cooperating or compromising at all.

Is this a correct interpretation? Was this meeting as bad as it sounds?

Is there anything we can do to help?

Is there another meeting scheduled?

[KGnagey]

Wow I can't beleive where this is now going. One person with DPW has this much control and is not willing to even talk about a improved sustainable plan for all trail users?

Sounds like Clarke Howells will make sure nothing threatens the watersheds. The deer better look out. http://wjz.com/local/deer.loch.raven.2.818064.html

[b1umb0y]

Hey Guys,

I have been in attendance to many of these task force meetings and have been interfacing with the folks from DPW regarding trail maintenance days at Loch Raven for the past two years now.

As it currently stands, I think we are simply working through the political process towards a mutually beneficial compromise. While there will be rough patches along the way, it is difficult to say what direction talks are truly going at any given moment, or at least until an agreement is achieved. Until then, I would recommend patience and vigilance.

Our goal is to work towards a positive and meaningful solution and we have been working hard to do just that. Thanks again for your continued support!

d./

[AdventureSean]

Maybe someone from the meetings can comment on the exact situation.

The meeting was weeks ago with the link to the meeting minutes. The recent post on 3/20 stated that everyone will be moved off the singletrack starting this week. The meeting minutes don't state that. It sounds like a tough process with sides far apart but where did the sudden knee jerk reaction come from?

I believe what everyone is wondering is are they indeed planning on stopping people this week? It's not dry enough yet so I'll be running at Loch Raven.

-S

[b1umb0y]

Maybe someone from the meetings can comment on the exact situation.

The meeting was weeks ago with the link to the meeting minutes. The recent post on 3/20 stated that everyone will be moved off the singletrack starting this week. The meeting minutes don't state that. It sounds like a tough process with sides far apart but where did the sudden knee jerk reaction come from?

I believe what everyone is wondering is are they indeed planning on stopping people this week? It's not dry enough yet so I'll be running at Loch Raven.

-S

Hey Sean--

I was at the meeting and am trying to give the fairest possible representation of the situation. Like I said, we are meandering through the political process. And right now, both parties are sussing out what they think constitutes a compromise.

As far as I know, trail users aren't currently being moved off the singletrack. I could be wrong, but when and if that happens, you will all hear about it from multiple sources.

If you do happen to come across a ranger that is trying to guide you to the Woods Roads, be polite, comply, and please report the incident back to us with all of the pertinent details.

Thanks again for your concern and support. And if you have any further questions or comments, don't hesitate to ask or PM me.

d./

[kevin]

The recent post on 3/20 stated that everyone will be moved off the singletrack starting this week.

I think the statement you are referring to on the savetheraven.com site is:

"This week you will see that ALL users of Loch Raven Reservoir's footpaths (singletrack) will be moved off of the trails. We do not know when this will happen, but we do know that without your continuing help and support that the historical recreational opportunities at Loch Raven will be in jeopardy."

What I think Gary meant is:

This week [in the new meeting minutes section], you will see that ALL users of Loch Raven Reservoir's footpaths (singletrack) will be moved off of the trails. We do not know when this will happen, but we do know that without your continuing help and support that the historical recreational opportunities at Loch Raven will be in jeopardy.

I don't think there are any plans for Rangers to start moving all trail users off the trails this week, rather just that Gary's take on the meeting is that this is the direction it could take if we don't keep vigilant.

Kevin

[AdventureSean]

Thanks for the responses. Putting in the work with the meetings is appreciated. Hopefully we get a large group for the April trail work and buy some good faith.

[baltistyle]

I was referring to this week on STR, not this week on the trails. I am not really a writer, I am a passionate rider. Thank you for reading and your support. We have come a long way but still have a long climb ahead.

G

[muff]

Has anybody been fined or otherwise intercepted by rangers in any way this year?

[b1umb0y]

To date, I believe that no one has been ticketed for mountain biking at Loch Raven per say, but rather a few have been ticketed for disobeying a police officer or trespassing.

Warnings are still the current enforcement tool, so be nice and respectful.

Thanks,
Dave

[muff]

To date, I believe that no one has been ticketed for mountain biking at Loch Raven per say, but rather a few have been ticketed for disobeying a police officer or trespassing.

Warnings are still the current enforcement tool, so be nice and respectful.

Thanks,
Dave

Notice/warning heeded. Frankly, I've been avoiding LR pretty much altogether.

Gotta admit, you're response is a bit confusing. One one hand you're saying they haven't been ticketing and then go on to say they have.???

Are you just clarifying that the ticket didn't include language specifically indicating it was "for mountain biking", that it was disobeying a police officer (already got a warning and got caught again?) or trespassing? If so, I figure that'd be the case.

I'm simply wondering if they're still patrolling the trails this year (my buddy got a warning last year) and if so are they still giving warnings or have they now begun issuing tickets (i don't really care what statue they're citing a violation of, a ticket is a ticket).

So according to your statement, its either the later (they have begun issuing tickets) or:

1)there were a few really unlucky folks
2)there were a few jerks
3)they issue tickets for repeat offenders, already received a warning(s)

Thanks!

[b1umb0y]

It is a confusing matter because we, the mountain bike community, have been given conflicting messages from DPW regarding the current status of enforcement at Loch Raven. DPW has yet to step up and present a clear position on this topic.

To clarify, no one that I know of has been ticketed for mountain biking in violation of the 1998 plan. However, mountain bikers have been ticketed for trespassing (riding at night) and for disobeying a police officer (i.e. they were given a verbal warning to not ride on certain trails, and when caught a second or third time, were given a ticket for disobeying or they were not being respectful of the rangers).

I have heard of many people riding without violation. I have heard of many people being stopped, but subsequently let go without having to ID themselves or receiving a verbal or written warning. I have heard of a few that were stopped and warned and even some that were ticketed. In the end, it appears to be to the discretion of the ranger at the scene as well as the rider's general attitude.

That said, if you choose to ride at Loch Raven, be respectful if you get confronted by a ranger.

Put another way, it would be all of the above (#1-3) in your final summary. Currently, there has been no widespread ticketing of mountain bikes at Loch Raven as yet.

Hope this is helpful.
Dave

[kenzen410]

Hopefully they're also warning/ticketing hikers, trail runners, and fishermen, too

[muff]

Hopefully they're also warning/ticketing hikers, trail runners, and fishermen, too

Of course they are..... :nope:

[superflyguy]

I did the full loop starting at seminary and going around Morgan Mill fire road and down to Cub Hill and Loch Raven drive back. I saw one ranger coming in the gate-we almost had an ugly head on-he didnt say anything, but waved and moved on. I did see alot of tire tracks (motorized) going up to the cliffs and again around morgan mill. I received an email today stating that Merrymans is having serious issues. People throwing thumbtacks on the trail, cutting down trees and spreading vines across the trail. Also hanging fishing lures around some debris....hmmm.

[tbaier]

Anybody have the latest news? Haven't been to LR this fall - wondering if the ticketing is still going on. I've seen the Brochin v DPW articles but unsure of the latest on the ground.

[escatmore]

It's the same, though Bob and Dave continue their vigilance.

eric