Thoughts on making LH directional?

[rgb3]

I've been riding LH a few times a week for the past couple months and it's simply fantastic - thanks to all who built it.

Unfortunately, since Spring has hit, two things have happened:
1) The foliage and grass has gotten denser, making it difficult to see
2) Word has apparently gotten around, and many more people are using it (including many beginner's - I even saw a guy dragging a kid on a third wheel this weekend)

I think it's inevitable that head-on collisions are going to happen frequently there - especially on the faster sections of the Giles Run and Workhouse trails. I can think of several blind corners where riders from both directions can be hauling ass without any run-off.

Did the builders consider making any of the loops directional? Does anyone share my concern?

[chowderbutt]

beginners - that third wheel was tricked out with a moxie suspension seat post and platform pedals and it was being pulled by a slingshot 29er, that 5 year older was pumping that track wanting to catch air

Only down size was when he found a tick on him in the car, then he acted like a beginner, almost caused me to wreck the car.

Actually LH is competing heavily with accotink/wakefield for the most trail a bike friendly/fun mt bike trails in the area.

I think the jump area is definately one way, but the rest does flow quickly both ways - thus the dilema.

I would say get used to a little traffic and slow moving obstacles, since I believe the horse folks will likely be riding the trails soon.

[sevenforty]

I believe the horse folks will likely be riding the trails soon.
Hopefully not...aren't there separate equestrian trails? If they take over the LH trails I say we take over the FH equestrian trails then. Manifest destiny! :D

[Dr Phil mmkay]

Hopefully not...aren't there separate equestrian trails? If they take over the LH trails I say we take over the FH equestrian trails then. Manifest destiny! :D

LOL. I still need to see these hiking/horsing (:rolleyes:) trails over at FH. Apparently they're ripe for the poaching! :eek: ;):p

[tsunayoshi]

IMBA's rules of the trail (http://www.imba.com/about/trail_rules.html) come to mind. #4 seems to apply here.

[jabberwocky]

Most of those trails are pretty open, and the faster trails are fairly wide as well. Pay attention and you won't have issues. I don't think making anything there directional is a good idea.

[Dr Phil mmkay]

IMBA's rules of the trail (http://www.imba.com/about/trail_rules.html) come to mind. #4 seems to apply here.

If you want to let others know you are coming but are lazy about it, just swap out your current rear hub for a Hope Pro II. Those things are loud!:D

[rgb3]

beginners - that third wheel was tricked out with a moxie suspension seat post and platform pedals and it was being pulled by a slingshot 29er, that 5 year older was pumping that track wanting to catch air

Only down size was when he found a tick on him in the car, then he acted like a beginner, almost caused me to wreck the car.

Haha. This must have been somebody else, then.

Hopefully not...aren't there separate equestrian trails? If they take over the LH trails I say we take over the FH equestrian trails then. Manifest destiny! :D

I've passed horses on the Workhouse loop, but that's it so far.

Most of those trails are pretty open, and the faster trails are fairly wide as well. Pay attention and you won't have issues. I don't think making anything there directional is a good idea.

:rolleyes: Thanks, but paying all the attention in the world isn't going to help on a blind corner when both bikes are approaching at 20mph.

[jabberwocky]

:rolleyes: Thanks, but paying all the attention in the world isn't going to help on a blind corner when both bikes are approaching at 20mph.To be honest, if you are unable to see if theres oncoming traffic to the distance necessary to stop, you aren't riding safely. Approaching a blind corner at 20mph is simply stupid. That said, I can't think of very many corners at LH that are truly blind, much less ones that allow 20mph speeds. If you pay attention its very easy to notice oncoming traffic in all but a few areas.

There are a lot more blind corners at Schaeffer than at LH, and Schaeffer hasn't had any head-on collision pandemics during the decade its been open. Just because a few people like to override their abilities doesn't mean we need to make an entire trail system directional.

[rgb3]

To be honest, if you are unable to see if theres oncoming traffic to the distance necessary to stop, you aren't riding safely. Approaching a blind corner at 20mph is simply stupid. That said, I can't think of very many corners at LH that are truly blind, much less ones that allow 20mph speeds. If you pay attention its very easy to notice oncoming traffic in all but a few areas.

There are numerous blind corners in both Giles Run (slower speeds and more a result of vegetation, so it's a seasonal thing) and on the Workhouse loop (faster and due to elevation changes). The 20mph may be an exaggeration - I don't use a computer, so I'm just estimating. Either way, it's fast enough to be dangerous.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to meet you for a ride there to show you what I'm talking about. You may be able to show me where I'm mistaken.

There are a lot more blind corners at Schaeffer than at LH, and Schaeffer hasn't had any head-on collision pandemics during the decade its been open. Just because a few people like to override their abilities doesn't mean we need to make an entire trail system directional.

I haven't ridden Schaeffer, so the comparison is lost on me. I really don't think it's a function of overriding my abilities - it's just a function of the terrain. And I'm not talking about the entire system - I'm talking about the two loops where I happen to perceive a problem.



Regardless, it's just a point of discussion. ;)

[Dr Phil mmkay]

There are numerous blind corners in both Giles Run (slower speeds and more a result of vegetation, so it's a seasonal thing) and on the Workhouse loop (faster and due to elevation changes). The 20mph may be an exaggeration - I don't use a computer, so I'm just estimating. Either way, it's fast enough to be dangerous.

The thing with LH is that it's a fairly tame multi-use trail. Therefore it makes sense to make it bi-directional. It gives users a chance to change it up from time to time at their chosing. FH on the other hand, is a bit more techinical and mtb specific and thus, should be directional due to safety. You're allow to go balls out at FH at your discretion if you're on a bike. At LH though, the right of way usually goes to hikers and equestrians.

If you're interested, I'd be happy to meet you for a ride there to show you what I'm talking about. You may be able to show me where I'm mistaken.

I'm about 5 mins away from LH and ride there pretty regularly. I'd be down for a group ride one of these drier days. Def. keep an eye out over on the rides forum for a possible LH group ride in the near future (if the rain actually lets up :rolleyes:).

[CRAIG2]

There are numerous blind corners in both Giles Run (slower speeds and more a result of vegetation, so it's a seasonal thing) and on the Workhouse loop (faster and due to elevation changes). The 20mph may be an exaggeration - I don't use a computer, so I'm just estimating. Either way, it's fast enough to be dangerous.

Regardless, it's just a point of discussion. ;)

And, today's word is: prudence. ;)

[rgb3]

The thing with LH is that it's a fairly tame multi-use trail. Therefore it makes sense to make it bi-directional. It gives users a chance to change it up from time to time at their chosing. FH on the other hand, is a bit more techinical and mtb specific and thus, should be directional due to safety. You're allow to go balls out at FH at your discretion if you're on a bike. At LH though, the right of way usually goes to hikers and equestrians.

Oh yeah - no questions about the right of way. I'm talking more about biker-on-biker violence. ;) But yeah, the relative tameness is part of the problem, I guess. Since it's not technical (which is nice for a change - again, thanks to those who built it), the fun lies in the speed (or at least in some sections for me). I'm not riding beyond my means relative to the trail, but if another biker suddenly appears from the opposite direction moving fast...

Either way, it's something I'm clearly conscious of, but I'm concerned about those who aren't as aware...


I'm about 5 mins away from LH and ride there pretty regularly. I'd be down for a group ride one of these drier days. Def. keep an eye out over on the rides forum for a possible LH group ride in the near future (if the rain actually lets up :rolleyes:).

Sounds like a plan. I'm also about 5 minutes away. Even if a group ride doesn't manifest, feel free to email or PM me and we can check it out.

[rgb3]

And, today's word is: prudence. ;)

:D Fair enough. ;)

[Dr Phil mmkay]

And, today's word is: prudence.

Is it wrong that I had to look up the word in (one of the online) dictionary to remind me what it means? :rolleyes:

[jabberwocky]

There are numerous blind corners in both Giles Run (slower speeds and more a result of vegetation, so it's a seasonal thing) and on the Workhouse loop (faster and due to elevation changes). The 20mph may be an exaggeration - I don't use a computer, so I'm just estimating. Either way, it's fast enough to be dangerous.Well, I personally never approach a totally blind corner with enough speed that I won't be able to stop if theres something in the way that I can't see. Even with a directional trail like Fountainhead, there might be a slow/stopped/fallen rider right around the corner that you aren't aware of.

Also, there are different levels of "blind corner". I don't think there are any truly blind corners at LH, just ones where vegetation reduces the distance at which you'll identify another rider. So its very rarely a situation of not being able to see them at all until you hit them, but instead just means you'll have less time to stop or adjust. In those cases, reducing speed pretty much eliminates the risk (at 10mph on relatively level ground, I can come to a complete stop in just a few yards).

I haven't ridden Schaeffer, so the comparison is lost on me. I really don't think it's a function of overriding my abilities - it's just a function of the terrain. And I'm not talking about the entire system - I'm talking about the two loops where I happen to perceive a problem.What I'm saying is that lots of our trail systems have areas with poor sightlines and high speeds, and yet we don't hear about lots of head-on collisions (although I'm sure they happen occasionally). To me, that suggests that most riders are able to ride in a way that they don't hit oncoming traffic. :)

[rgb3]

Well, I personally never approach a totally blind corner with enough speed that I won't be able to stop if theres something in the way that I can't see. Even with a directional trail like Fountainhead, there might be a slow/stopped/fallen rider right around the corner that you aren't aware of.

Also, there are different levels of "blind corner". I don't think there are any truly blind corners at LH, just ones where vegetation reduces the distance at which you'll identify another rider. So its very rarely a situation of not being able to see them at all until you hit them, but instead just means you'll have less time to stop or adjust. In those cases, reducing speed pretty much eliminates the risk (at 10mph on relatively level ground, I can come to a complete stop in just a few yards).

What I'm saying is that lots of our trail systems have areas with poor sightlines and high speeds, and yet we don't hear about lots of head-on collisions (although I'm sure they happen occasionally). To me, that suggests that most riders are able to ride in a way that they don't hit oncoming traffic. :)

I hear you.

But when I swap helmet paint with somebody after riding prudently along the workhouse, I'm calling you out.

[walsh]

Is it wrong that I had to look up the word in (one of the online) dictionary to remind me what it means? :rolleyes:

Only if you're, say, an aspiring attorney, or perhaps physician.

My opinion is that keeping an eye out for other users and playing nice is about as fundamental to mountain biking as filling your tires - if it's not race day or a ski mountian, closed unidirectional courses are the exception, rather than the rule. Remember that Fountainhead is not unidirectional because it was designed that way, but rather because of a conpromise with park mangement that allowed the trails to stay open.

Multi-purpose, multi-directional is important for continued MTB trail access.

[bikerjay]

One way systems are lame unless they include DH specific stuff like drops and gaps. It scares me a lot that making LH a one way would even come up for discussion................
I can scarcely think of a trail system more appropriate for multi use 2way traffic. Seriously if we cant have conflict free fun some where like laurel hill we should all just pack in and play golf...

[Jackson]

... It scares me a lot that making LH a one way would even come up for discussion................
I can scarcely think of a trail system more appropriate for multi use 2way traffic.



Discussions like this are a big part of the forums and an even bigger part of distracting me from my TPS reports at work.

As others have noted limited sightline corners exist on most every trail, except maybe the C&O canal. Rosaryville has a good number of sharp turns and plenty of vegetation to block your view. Listen, look, moderate your speed where appropriate, and give the occasional verbal warning and you greatly lessen the chance of having a surprise face-to-face encounter.

Also remember people who are tired or otherwise struggling tend to stare down at their front wheel and otherwise zone out. Just because you see them doesn't mean they see you.

To me, the biggest danger @ LH is the damn thorns. I swear they are right out of the Jurassic era and right through just about all clothing and tires.

[rgb3]

One way systems are lame unless they include DH specific stuff like drops and gaps. It scares me a lot that making LH a one way would even come up for discussion................
I can scarcely think of a trail system more appropriate for multi use 2way traffic. Seriously if we cant have conflict free fun some where like laurel hill we should all just pack in and play golf...

Seriously? Maybe I'm wrong about the likelihood of collision, but if a simple discussion scares you, maybe you should take up golf. :confused2:

[Dr Phil mmkay]

maybe you should take up golf.

Tried that, hurt my back bending over to put the golf ball on the tee. Mountain biking's much safer. :rolleyes:

[rgb3]

Tried that, hurt my back bending over to put the golf ball on the tee. Mountain biking's much safer. :rolleyes:

Roger that. I tried it, too... and promptly fell asleep. :nope:

[CRAIG2]

Tried that, hurt my back bending over to put the golf ball on the tee. Mountain biking's much safer. :rolleyes:

You were doing it wrong ;) Actually, golf is great for building coordination and core strength. My PT actually suggested it as a recommended activity for me, along with cycling, of course. But, if you do either improperly, and don't invest in equipment that fits, you're gonna hear about it in aches and pains.

The great thing about golf is that you can drink beer while you play. If you don't drink beer while playing, you're doing it wrong. The downside to golf is that it's perpetually frustrating. :bangshead:

[joep]

The great thing about golf is that you can drink beer while you play.

Is there a singlespeed equivalent in golf? Like only carrying a 3 iron?

[jabberwocky]

The great thing about golf is that you can drink beer while you play. If you don't drink beer while playing, you're doing it wrong. The downside to golf is that it's perpetually frustrating. :bangshead:The thing thats frustrating about golf is that you have some of the greatest pieces of sports equipment ever (golf carts? So awesome. Clubs? Amazing.) and then use them to smack a little white ball around for a few hours while wearing ugly clothing.

Such a waste. I can think of a million things you can do with the combination of golf carts and clubs, and every one of them is more interesting than actual golf.

[Dr Phil mmkay]

You were doing it wrong ;) Actually, golf is great for building coordination and core strength. My PT actually suggested it as a recommended activity for me, along with cycling, of course. But, if you do either improperly, and don't invest in equipment that fits, you're gonna hear about it in aches and pains.

The great thing about golf is that you can drink beer while you play. If you don't drink beer while playing, you're doing it wrong. The downside to golf is that it's perpetually frustrating. :bangshead:

I was actually kidding about hurting my back playing golf. In high school I had a part time job working at the local driving range (Hill Top Golf by Hayfield Secondary on Telegraph) and since then could care less about golf. I do stop by the driving range from time to time whenever my friends annoy me into going. Yes, beers are a must, especially if it gets competitive. :)

[jabberwocky]

Is there a singlespeed equivalent in golf? Like only carrying a 3 iron?Most golfers already have the ugly clothes and snooty sense of superiority. What else do you want? ;)

[Dr Phil mmkay]

The thing thats frustrating about golf is that you have some of the greatest pieces of sports equipment ever (golf carts? So awesome. Clubs? Amazing.) and then use them to smack a little white ball around for a few hours while wearing ugly clothing.

Such a waste. I can think of a million things you can do with the combination of golf carts and clubs, and every one of them is more interesting than actual golf.

That's an interesting point. I say strap a few bottle of nitrous to the golf carts, hang out the side with a titanium driver, and play golf polo with one of those pink rubber dodge balls (like in grade school). Also, on the courses themselves: ramps to catch air.

Most golfers already have the ugly clothes and snooty sense of superiority. What else do you want? ;)

It's funny because it's true.

[walsh]

I can think of a million things you can do with the combination of golf carts and clubs, and every one of them is more interesting than actual golf.

My college crew captain: "Guys, we have to talk. I want you to have fun, but don't be stupid. Hitting golf balls off the roof of [building X] is fun. Getting caught hitting golf balls off the roof of [building X] is stupid."

I have some golf cart stories too.

[CRAIG2]

The thing thats frustrating about golf is that you have some of the greatest pieces of sports equipment ever (golf carts? So awesome. Clubs? Amazing.) and then use them to smack a little white ball around for a few hours while wearing ugly clothing.

Such a waste. I can think of a million things you can do with the combination of golf carts and clubs, and every one of them is more interesting than actual golf.

You left out the over-the-top smack talking.

I actually just took it up so that I could spend a little more time with my kid brother, who's going to the nationals this year with the Special Olympics. He puts me to shame. I just don't want to embarass him on the links. Right now I have all the gear, just no idea. And I've spent wayyyy to much money so far to give it up.

I'd take up bowling, but he already can bowl a 300...

[sourceofdenial]

I'm much more concerned about being taken out by a deer at LH than I am about running into someone around a blind corner.

While there might be some corners without a clear view through them, I can't think of a spot that doesn't have a clear view of what's ahead leading into the corner. Usually I can see someone or something is up ahead at least 100 feet.

[rgb3]

So I certainly appreciate the varying perspectives on this.

Those who think there isn't a problem or there aren't any semi-blind curves, do me a favor and ride LH again now that this is in your mind and see if you still feel that you consistently have 100 ft of visibility or whatever - especially on the giles and workhouse trails. I'll do the same to see if maybe I'm exaggerating.

If nothing else, hopefully people are a bit more aware of this if, indeed, there is a potential issue.

[Auger N]

Most golfers already have the ugly clothes and snooty sense of superiority. What else do you want? ;)

Don't forget Buicks!

I have serious plans of taking up golf -- sometime after my first heart attack!:thumbsup: