29er steering/offset question

[pepelkod]

"In Soviet Russia, bike steers you".

I have a new GF Paragon 29er with a 80mm Reba 29er fork (with the 46mm offset.)

The problem I am having is that when I lean into a turn (even slightly) the pull on the bars is very strong. In other words, the bike wants to steer in the direction of the turn and I feel I am fighting the bike and scrubbing speed with the front tire.

Facts:
I noticed this BUT to a lesser degree on my Salsa Dos Niner (a 29er with a 38mm offset Reba).
I do not notice this at all on my road bike (It has 29er sized wheels).
I do not notice this at all on ANY 26ers that I have owned/ridden including Titus Racer-X, 26er Paragon, Santa Cruz Blur, Kona Dawg, Specialized Stumpjumper Enduro, Stumpjumper M4 HT, unspecified Canondale HT, 26er Vassago HT SS and many others.

Is this a problem?
Would I simply get used to it? (I did to some degree on the Salsa, but never liked that bike.)
Would a 51mm offset Fox "fix" this? (It would reduce the trail I think.)
Would an older 38mm offset fork fix this? (It would give me more trail I believe).
Would bumping the travel up to 100mm on the Reba fix it? (Slacker head tube angle, more trail).
Is there another (cheap) solution?

-Doug

[drevil]

"In Soviet Russia, bike steers you".

I have a new ...

Is there another (cheap) solution?

-Doug

Yeah, give it a little time to get used to it.

[BikerMiker]

I would try the 100mm travel setting to see if there is a difference that you notice right away.

I had a non-suspension-corrected bike with an 80mm fork on it and it would pull like crazy, especially over logs and stuff. It REALLY wanted to turn. I know that it was caused by the slack angle and the corresponding geo-drama.

Good luck. It's GREAT riding weather out right now!

mk

[rciracing]

Fishers run small in my opinion. Are the bike specs comparable to your other rides (TT, stem length, saddle to crank position)? Is it possible that you are just set up differently on this bike. Compared to my other bikes w/ a shorter TT, the saddle to bar length on a one size larger Fisher is actually shorter....even w/ a longer TT on the Fisher.

[JFritsch]

I notice a steering pull when transfering between my Niner Rip 9 and Jet 9. Takes about 15 minutes to fully get use to the difference when changing bikes.

[pepelkod]

Yeah, give it a little time to get used to it.

Ok...but if I accidentally veer into you at the W@W race you will know it was the bike's fault.

-D

[drevil]

Ok...but if I accidentally veer into you at the W@W race you will know it was the bike's fault.

-D

Derby good. Make you strong like bull: 1 (http://flickr.com/photos/9525555@N07/1850277274/), 2 (http://flickr.com/photos/9525555@N07/1849455599/in/photostream/). :p

[kenholmes]

ok, this is a discussion that could go on for a long time. the short answer is forget about the paragon handling anything like a 26in wheel. the problem is not going to go away with the 51mm rake either. Neither are going to get you back to the salsa either. the problem from a design standpoint is really wheel size and the fact that you are running suspension, which requires a slacker head angle to properly function. you are just going to have to get used to it or get a different frame, preferably one without suspension. shortening the axle to crown length even by large magnitudes to reach a desired hta will f'up the bike so much with the seat tube angle that you neither could nor would want to ride it.

sorry to say it that way.

fyi, as a trail number increases the front end steers slower and feels more floppy. the paragon is running around 91mm via their specs, my old fat chance runs 61mm. traditional trail numbers run from around 50mm to 70ish. The Dos Niner is 69mm. I know that does not mean much to most people but if you start comparing the magnitudes of your different bikes you can tell what is going on. basically trail is the only quantitative number that you can use to compare the quickness (think nimble or flickable front end, or maybe the amount of effort at the bars to make the wheel turn) between different sized bikes and wheels. I pay close attention to this number when I am building a frame because there is a feeling I really like and I want that through all my bikes (its 61mm's). and guess what, everything has the same kind of quickness at the bars regardless of the rest of the geometry.

there is a handy dandy little excel trail calculator from Mr. Ferris at Anvil Bike Works. you should rip into it and make some comparisons with what you have already ridden, that will give you a good idea of where you are and if you really want to try to do something about it.

here is the url: http://www.anvilbikes.com/

if you want more of my opinion's please feel free to ask

best of luck

ken

[eloach]

"In Soviet Russia, bike steers you".

I have a new GF Paragon 29er with a 80mm Reba 29er fork (with the 46mm offset.)

The problem I am having is that when I lean into a turn (even slightly) the pull on the bars is very strong. In other words, the bike wants to steer in the direction of the turn and I feel I am fighting the bike and scrubbing speed with the front tire.

Facts:
I noticed this BUT to a lesser degree on my Salsa Dos Niner (a 29er with a 38mm offset Reba).
I do not notice this at all on my road bike (It has 29er sized wheels).
I do not notice this at all on ANY 26ers that I have owned/ridden including Titus Racer-X, 26er Paragon, Santa Cruz Blur, Kona Dawg, Specialized Stumpjumper Enduro, Stumpjumper M4 HT, unspecified Canondale HT, 26er Vassago HT SS and many others.

Is this a problem?
Would I simply get used to it? (I did to some degree on the Salsa, but never liked that bike.)
Would a 51mm offset Fox "fix" this? (It would reduce the trail I think.)
Would an older 38mm offset fork fix this? (It would give me more trail I believe).
Would bumping the travel up to 100mm on the Reba fix it? (Slacker head tube angle, more trail).
Is there another (cheap) solution?

-Doug

Did you GET RID OF THE CRAP STOCK BONT TIRES??? If not DO SO NOW.

Although I am not the greatest rider, I have 3 GF 29ers and a RacerX and other 26ers and a 69er. So here's my take:

1 - 29er wheels generally DO NOT break loose. Not even a bit. That might be why it feels as though it's pulling you. When I got on the RacerX after being on only 29ers for a while, I washed out on so many turns at the CM WF race I can't even remember the count. It wasn't the bike. It was being use to the 29er sticking like glue to every turn and "pulling" me through it.

2 - My Paragon is "G1" and I love it's stability. My other Fishers are "G2" and it is less stable and handles more like a 26er, but at the same time, the wheel position in relation to the bars makes the bikes feel like they "lead" you. It feels as though the head angle is steeper than it really is. On the SuperFly I have adjusted to this but still feel sketchy on bridges because the front end is so light. On the HiFi Pro I have NOT adjusted to this yet because it is combined with 100 mm of travel, so some "sponge" is added in to the equation.

3 - Messing about with my "home made" 69er and the rest of my quiver has demonstrated to me that both 26er and 29er bike have their advantages and either can be ridden quite well by someone 6 foot or under. It really comes down to bike geometry and fit... and being "use to" a particular bike. This is the case with G2 as well. I think it takes a bit of getting used to. It makes a 29er more "agile" at the bars, but the flip side of that is the effect of "easy steering" on big wheels makes the bike want to "lead out" as soon as you have given it input. IMO, G1 did NOT do that, G2 does. I am not sure sticking XC race steering on a 29er is really all that great of an idea for an average rider like myself, but Fisher makes some nice bikes for the money.

[pepelkod]

Neither are going to get you back to the salsa either.

I would rather face plant in a pile of rocks....oh wait...that is exactly what the Salsa did to me.

The ONLY thing I liked about the Salsa is that it did seem to corner slightly better through fast sweepers. I attributed that to the Rampage 2.3 tire on the front, not to the geometry.



Did you GET RID OF THE CRAP STOCK BONT TIRES??? If not DO SO NOW.


I did not get the the full bike; just a replacement frame for my broken 26er Paragon frame. I am running a Weirwolf on the rear and a Smallblock 8 on the front. I have a Crossmark I could put somewhere, but not sure where.

Thanks for the input everyone. I rode it a while and did get more used to it, but it is still a weird feeling. I need to get it out in some serious terrain to really see if it causes trouble.

-Doug

[eloach]

I am running a Weirwolf on the rear and a Smallblock 8 on the front. I have a Crossmark I could put somewhere, but not sure where.

-Doug

Hmm...

Maybe put the easy roller on the rear and the gripper on the front?