Proposed new rules

[tuba_transport]

I have some new rules proposals for Fountainhead.

Fountainhead is a mountain bike only trail and only about 7-8 miles right now. There is a hiker only trail on the other side of the parking lot which is something like 20-30 miles of great trail. If I ride the hiker trail I can get a healthy fine from the ranger.

I propose that for every hiker we have to dodge at Fountainhead we get one free pass to ride the hiker trail for the day. For every dog off leash which proceeds to chase us down forcing us to stop so it can be rejoined with its owners, we get 5 free passes.

By my math I should be able to redeem 13 days worth of riding on the hiker trail without penalty.

At least three different groups totally 8 people in the short 1 lap I had time for today. The first group of 4 had a black lab off leash which decided I was more fun to chase than its owners.

What is the penalty again if I go riding down that extended hiker trail?

[Vecsus]

I completely agree. I've run into (not literally....yet) hikers and runners on the bike trail many times. I inform them that it's a bike-only trail. Most just say "oh, ok" but some turn hostile and even use profanity. Some pretend like they didn't know despite the signs at the entrance to the trail.

You know that big sign before the parking lot that says "Bikes on bike trail only"? Well they need the exact same type of sign telling the hikers to stay on the hiking trail. Why single out the mountain bikers? In my 30-40 trips to FH I have never once seen a biker heading into the hiker trail or coming out of it. But I've seen at least two dozen hikers using the bike trail.

[MyOtherBrotherL]

Now is the NOT the time to start an anti anything at Fountain Head. We just had an incredibly successful meeting with the NVRPA that will hopefully lead us to a successful grant application that will ultimately transform Fountain Head from an 8 mile rutted mess to a 12 to 15 mile sustainable stacked looped system.

And - As this gets pointed out once or twice a year, hikers on the Mountain Bike trail only helps the argument for multi-use for the entire Park.

AND - Name one person who has ever been fined or had their bike confiscated for poaching the Blue Trail

AND... AND.... The amount of hikers that actually poach the Mountain Bike trail pales in comparison to the Bikers who poach the Hiker only trails.

Do me a BIG BIG favor and let this one go until we at least the get the Grant Application submitted..................

(I'm asking in a really nice non moderator way too....:D)

[tuba_transport]

Do me a BIG BIG favor and let this one go until we at least the get the Grant Application submitted..................

(I'm asking in a really nice non moderator way too....:D)

I'll take your wisdom to heart. I have seen hikers there often before, but I think the off leash dog chasing me down is what got me most fired up.

Deep down, I don't REALLY mind multi-use. I am just a little bitter that I can't head out the other side of the parking lot and ride that trail, which would make a great out and back for a long day ride.

On a brighter side, it was nice to see the gate open and the parking lot available again to park.

[sourceofdenial]

Now is the NOT the time to start an anti anything at Fountain Head. We just had an incredibly successful meeting with the NVRPA that will hopefully lead us to a successful grant application that will ultimately transform Fountain Head from an 8 mile rutted mess to a 12 to 15 mile sustainable stacked looped system.

And - As this gets pointed out once or twice a year, hikers on the Mountain Bike trail only helps the argument for multi-use for the entire Park.

AND - Name one person who has ever been fined or had their bike confiscated for poaching the Blue Trail

AND... AND.... The amount of hikers that actually poach the Mountain Bike trail pales in comparison to the Bikers who poach the Hiker only trails.

Do me a BIG BIG favor and let this one go until we at least the get the Grant Application submitted..................

(I'm asking in a really nice non moderator way too....:D)

Before Fountainhead had an official mountain bike trail, I was escorted off the Blue trail and driven off fountainhead park property by a ranger. Threatened to fine me, but didnt take my bike. Guy wasnt too pleased to say the least.

[drewdane]

What about horses? Do we get free passes for horses?

(FTR, I agree with Larry)

[Vecsus]

I have absolutely no problem with making FH multi-user but I've been hearing that ever since I moved here five years ago. If hikers on the mountain bike trail helps the argument for multi-user then why not bikes on the hiking trail? Why do we have to be the ones to accommodate all the other users? Why not have designated days where ALL the trails at FH are marked for multi-user....and not just the bike trail. Open up the hiker trails to bikes and we'll all acclimatize that much faster.

Until we achieve multi-user status everyone needs to follow the rules that are clearly posted in the parking lot and trailhead.

[jabberwocky]

I just regard hikers on the bike trail as mobile, not-to-bright obstacles. Kinda like squirrels. If you aim right at them, they usually get out of the way. :rolleyes:

[Squirrel Girl]

I just regard hikers on the bike trail as mobile, not-to-bright obstacles. Kinda like squirrels. If you aim right at them, they usually get out of the way. :rolleyes:HEY!
----------------------------------------------------------------------


I just wanna say one thing about hikers on the bike trail....

It's not fair!

It's not fair!

IT'S NOT FAIR!

IT'S NOT FAIR!


Ok, I feel better now. Do the rest of you, too? Seeing as we are trying to not duplicate the LBS vs online thread (again), can we not duplicate the mtb only trail at FH? :)

[Vecsus]

OK, we've established it's not fair. Yet this discussion comes up at least once every season. You'd think something would change but it hasn't. Hikers are still using the bike trail and neither trail is being re-tagged as multi-user.

Ignoring the issue will not make it go away.

[Squirrel Girl]

Ignoring the issue will not make it go away.And neither will bitching on the MORE forum.

So, lets see. What are the options:

1) Complaining on the MORE forum (doesn't seem to help, but makes some people feel better)

2) Writing letters/phoning the land manager (hasn't seemed to work yet, but maybe there's a chance)

3) Poaching (could get yourself a few good rides in; creates enemies--look at what bikers think of hikers who poach; could be a bad situation--sourceofdenial's story; could get mtbers thrown out of FH altogether=> doesn't seem like a very good idea overall if you weigh the costs and benefits, IMHO)

4) Start with Larry's suggestion about holding off until the improved mtb trail gets approved, then work on one of the suggestions (like No. 2?) above.

And my personal favorite, was Dave Scull's suggestion last time we had this thread going.... work in a *friendly* manner with hikers and explain to them how we're treated unfairly and create an ally to help get the rules changed. He had much better words than I just used, though.

So, did I miss something?

[jabberwocky]

HEY!...and if they DON"T get out of the way, you get squirrel soufflé! Doesn't work with hikers though, they just get annoyed.

So, did I miss something?5) Get a volunteer to set themselves on fire to draw attention to our horrific plight?

[Vecsus]

And neither will bitching on the MORE forum.

So, lets see. What are the options:

1) Complaining on the MORE forum (doesn't seem to help, but makes some people feel better)

2) Writing letters/phoning the land manager (hasn't seemed to work yet, but maybe there's a chance)

3) Poaching (could get yourself a few good rides in; creates enemies--look at what bikers think of hikers who poach; could be a bad situation--sourceofdenial's story; could get mtbers thrown out of FH altogether=> doesn't seem like a very good idea overall if you weigh the costs and benefits, IMHO)

4) Start with Larry's suggestion about holding off until the improved mtb trail gets approved, then work on one of the suggestions (like No. 2?) above.

And my personal favorite, was Dave Scull's suggestion last time we had this thread going.... work in a *friendly* manner with hikers and explain to them how we're treated unfairly and create an ally to help get the rules changed. He had much better words than I just used, though.

So, did I miss something?

1) Yup, "bitching" lets us know we're not alone with our displeasure with the current status. (BTW, "bitching" is what people call a complaint when they don't agree with it. It's a cheap way to discredit someones statements without a logical response. But since you then provide a list of logical alternatives it makes up for the poor tactic.)

2) As you said, hasn't worked. They seem pleased enough with the work we do on the bike trail yet not pleased enough to enough to take steps to keep hikers off the bike trail (like putting up equally prominent signs in the parking lot)

3) I refuse to poach. That would negate the premise of my argument. What I want is either multi-user access to both trails or an effective ban on hikers from the bike trail.

4) The best of the options listed. Of course adding new trail to the bike half of the park will just lure in the hikers/runner that want to check it out. Maybe we should just have designated weekends where we all swap trails and get the exploration out of our systems.

5) We've tried the friendly comments to poachers on the bike trail. Some are civil, many are not. Getting flipped off by another trail user makes baby Jesus cry.

But what the hell does my opinion matter? I'm hardly ever in the country anymore anyway. :( I'm just bitter that I'm getting screwed out of a second bike season in a row.

[g_barr]

You know that big sign before the parking lot that says "Bikes on bike trail only"?
Remember there's a short path from the road to the first MTB loop south of the mini-golf area. If folks are walking up the hill, they can very easily enter the MTB area without passing a sign. In addition, hikers (area residents? because there's no parking) can enter the MTB trails from Hampton Road and not pass a sign.

Interesting enough, when you click the View Park Map link on the NVRPA Fountainhead (http://www.nvrpa.org/parks/fountainhead/index.php), you get a map of the bike trails not a map of the entire park.

And - As this gets pointed out once or twice a year, hikers on the Mountain Bike trail only helps the argument for multi-use for the entire Park.
Your whole post is well said Larry. However, this particular point makes me think of some arguements about NOT opening the whole park to bikes. On one hand, MTB overuse/abuse is clearly evident on "our" trails - think root garden between Cannondale Run and the teeters. Hikers may argue that they don't want "their" trails to look like "our" trails.

Secondly, are the hiking trails sustainable construction? If they are not and are opened to MTBs, how long until it gets torn up like the MTB trails are now? How are we going to find enough volunteers/funding to maintain 20+ miles of trail that could end up looking like the MTB trails look now?

In case anyone has short-term memory loss, here is MOBL's Long Story Short (http://www.more-mtb.org/forum/showpost.php?p=100936&postcount=9).

[jabberwocky]

On one hand, MTB overuse/abuse is clearly evident on "our" trails - think root garden between Cannondale Run and the teeters. Hikers may argue that they don't want "their" trails to look like "our" trails.As a counterpoint to that, though, I've been told the hiker trails are in even worse shape than the mtb trail (I've never been on the hiker trails, I'm just going by hearsay).

[sourceofdenial]

The hiker trails are in decent shape, though I never thought the mountain bike trails were in particularly bad shape . In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a trail day on the hiking trails...

The loop that goes by the maintenance hut has sections that have lots of deadfall and erosion on some of the downhills, but this loop doesnt see much traffic. I think both loops see just enough traffic to keep the trails clear, but not enough to cause much damage.

The good news about the hiking trail is people only really use the first 3 miles or so until you hit Wolf Run Shoals. After that the condition gets a little worse until you get near Bull Run Marina, then it gets better again, then worse, then better when you get to Bull Run.

There are some pretty fun sections on that trail that I would love to ride again.

Oh, and in the course probably around 15 years of using those trails, I have yet to see a horse. Seen one in the parking lot, but never on the trail. But I'm guessing the people that will be lobbying most for no bikes will be the horse people that live in the area.

[Squirrel Girl]

Oh, and in the course probably around 15 years of using those trails, I have yet to see a horse. Seen one in the parking lot, but never on the trail. But I'm guessing the people that will be lobbying most for no bikes will be the horse people that live in the area.The only time I hiked the trail was when I had carpal tunnel surgery, and during recovery I couldn't ride for a while. I went off hiking those trails I couldn't ride. I did almost the full BR-O trail (in segments). I did cross paths with equestrians. They asked me if I were alright as I was hiking with my hand kinda held up in the air.

[tsunayoshi]

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a trail day on the hiking trails...


The Very Happy Trails Running Club (http://www.vhtrc.org/) does some maintenance on the Bull-Occoquan trail. I've seen a sign or two out on the trail along the lines of "Trails mainained by....", but I don't think they post signage like M.O.R.E. does when there is trail work in the parks.

I think they pay more attention to the bridges and stuff, because some trail sections are so eroded they are hard to even walk.

[sourceofdenial]

I see the PATC signs, like I do at many parks, and I've always wondered when they did their trail work. You would think that after living in this area for years, and hiking all over these parks, you would at least bump into a trail crew once. I figured it was done by gnomes, or at night.

Before there was the ShockABilly, there was the great descent down the Bull Run/Occ trail heading to the creek(Less than a mile in, leads to the first bridge, with all those little log steps) Even better was a few hundred feet up is a steep hill, going down that was a big test of my Schwinn Sidewinder back in the day. Still would be a pretty burly little descent on an XC trail.

I dont mind saying that I really really miss riding on those trails. Also, the old trails along sandy run. Before they put Thornebush or whatever neighborhood in across from Crosspointe there were some fantastic trails accessible from the powerlines there. The powerline stuff is still rideable but horribly eroded, but unfortunately the new developments destroyed all those old trails back there.

[tsteele999]

Concerning "poaching" trails, I thought it was funny that when I posted on MTBR a question about riding in Pennsylvania I received replies suggesting to ride the hiker trails and not worry about it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=401765

[tuba_transport]

Concerning "poaching" trails, I thought it was funny that when I posted on MTBR a question about riding in Pennsylvania I received replies suggesting to ride the hiker trails and not worry about it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=401765

I would contend that the reason it is more of a concern on this forum is because MORE has worked hard to open up new trails where they have not existed before. MORE also aggressively maintains most trails and even extends and enhances them every year.

I ain't a world traveler by any means, but I have lived in a couple of places. Every place I lived before moving to NOVA had a couple of riding spots at best. There were some others scattered around the state, but you had to do a LOT of driving to get to a new trail.

Here in NOVA I am literally 45 minutes from a dozen fantastic, well maintained trails. We also have a very active biking community involved with races, demo days, diverse group riding from Trips for Kids all the way up to Freeriding at the Shed. Trail days happen literally every week during the summer. We even have tons and tons of road riding if you want to stretch out your experiences.

This all happens in a LARGE part due to a trust built up between park management and MORE that MORE and its members are responsible citizens and can be counted on to do the "right things" with land when it is made available to its members and all the other local tax paying folk who utilize the trail networks.

The relationship for the most part is not contentious so getting access, while not easy by any means, is at least more possible.

In undergrad back in the 1890's while studying how to operate a Sousaphone in between my odd jobs at a blacksmith and wagon wheel builder, I rode the same 2 trails OVER and OVER and OVER again because that is all I had available which was worth riding. One of the trails, just happened to be pretty darn challenging and honed my meager skills, but it was still the same 2 trails.

Here I ride 5 trails most of the time but have access to many others if I want and have ridden at least 5 others at various times.

BTW, my 5 top trails are

Frederick Watershed (kick my a$$ awesome)
Fountainhead (time trial/interval training/technical roots at speed/shock-o-billy)
Accotink (close and gets the heart rate up)
Wakefield (close, relaxing, races, great people on group rides)
Gambrill(s) (first trail that kicked me in the b$ll$ and now seems less technically challenging)

[g_barr]

Concerning "poaching" trails, I thought it was funny that when I posted on MTBR a question about riding in Pennsylvania I received replies suggesting to ride the hiker trails and not worry about it.

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=401765
Valley Forge National Park has the closest MUTs and should be open to 10 p.m. You're not likely to have a FH-like experience on the trails open to bicycles. Since this is a very popular National Park, rangers with police authority are likely to be patrolling even after normal business hours. Being from out-of-town isn't an excuse and might actually guarantee you a ticket.

Wissahickon is close to KOP. But traffic on the Schuylkill Expressway (a.k.a I-76, Sure-kill Expressway) can be absolutely miserable even by DC Metro Area standards. You will also need a trail pass (essentially a hospital ID band) to be on the Wissahickon trails - I got my 2007 pass in about two weeks without making the $20 donation.

French Creek State Park is another good option but I think it's farther from KOP than Wissahickon.

The Philadelphia Mountain Biking Association (http://www.phillymtb.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,31/) is probably the best source for local trail info - check them out.