f88me

[martin]

a new forum - looks like it will be somewhat less moderated than this one...

f88me.com (http://www.f88me.com)

[jabberwocky]

Name probably taken from the political forum over on MTBR (which is known as "forum 88"). I believe a bunch of people were recently banned over there, so maybe thats the reason this started up...

[Vecsus]

F88 over at MTBR.com is a cesspool of ignorance and stupidity. They created that section in an attempt to keep those types of posts out of the regular bike-related portions of the forum. It works, for the most part, but they've been discussing whether or not to delete it and see if the posters (most of whom rarely post in other parts of the forum) just fade away or find someplace new to spew their hate and bile.

When I agreed to be a moderator in the MTBR 29er forum they asked if I wanted to help moderate the F88 part too. I declined. I don't go in there as it is and I certainly don't want to try keeping it on track. lol

[drewdane]

F88 over at MTBR.com is a cesspool of ignorance and stupidity. They created that section in an attempt to keep those types of posts out of the regular bike-related portions of the forum. It works, for the most part, but they've been discussing whether or not to delete it and see if the posters (most of whom rarely post in other parts of the forum) just fade away or find someplace new to spew their hate and bile.

When I agreed to be a moderator in the MTBR 29er forum they asked if I wanted to help moderate the F88 part too. I declined. I don't go in there as it is and I certainly don't want to try keeping it on track. lol
You're WAY off base. The issue is not about F88; the issue is whether MTBR is an honest broker of reviews and opinion, or whether it is simply an advertising medium that will protect its advertisers, up to and including deleted posts, locked threads and arbitrary bannings regardless of any violations of TOS, at the expense of forum members and its own integrity. Sadly, MTBR has shown itself to be the latter.

And yes, I do have some idea of what was going on behind the scenes.

Signed,

Square Bladder the Banned

(p.s.: see my comments below re: the "cesspool of ignorance and stupidity" :rolleyes: )

[jabberwocky]

I'll agree that the few times I poked me head in there, it was a haven of juvenile insults and mudslinging. If I was a mod there a lot of people would have been banned long ago just for being total asshats. :)

It looks like some politics posters started a vendetta against a bike manufacturer (Ibex?) and a bunch got their hands slapped for it.

[drewdane]

I'll agree that the few times I poked me head in there, it was a haven of juvenile insults and mudslinging. If I was a mod there a lot of people would have been banned long ago just for being total asshats. :)
MTBR needs F88, whether they like it or not. I don't know if you were on MTBR before F88. All those "total asshats", as you call them kept popping into Passion, General and wherever else and mucking up the bike-related discussion.

Those "total asshats", BTW, include respected members of the bike industry, professional riders, successful businesspeople, meatcutters, scientists, attorneys, doctors, social workers, roofers, geologists, housewives, sales reps, shop wrenches, and any number of other people from all walks of life.

Did "Passion" come together and build a bike for a Katrina victim?

Did the 29er board organize a fundraising drive to donate to anti-slavery organizations in Africa?

Did "General" donate funds to purchase livestock for a 3rd-world community?

It looks like some politics posters started a vendetta against a bike manufacturer (Ibex?) and a bunch got their hands slapped for it.

You've got it backwards. The vendetta was from the other direction.

[jabberwocky]

You've got it backwards. The vendetta was from the other direction.I'll admit I generally pay no attention whatsoever to the politics forum (or the Ibex forum, or most of the other forums...) so you may very well be right. But honestly, from my brief look into F88, a lot of the people there needed to be wacked with a ban-stick in a bad way. I've always wondered why they even kept that forum around (it adds nothing to the site), but figured it was there mainly to keep those people out of the other forums.

Personally, as a moderator, I think MTBR is extremely haphazard and inconsistent when it comes to moderation anyway. They are very secretive and non-obvious when they moderate, so its hard to tell where the line is.

EDIT: Is the ban permanent? Did they contact you at all to say why they were banning you?

[Squirrel_Girl]

http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/poke.gif

[drewdane]

http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/poke.gif

Are all those smilies from deepcaves? You have the best smilies!

Chris, my ban is permanent, and there was no warning. I didn't need a warning though - I committed "Suicide by Admin".

Once my MORE membership renewal goes through, I'll have a new avatar reflecting my feelings. Don't worry - nothing too inflammatory! ;)

[DKEG]

I think we should start a F88 forum here. We can discuss important issues in a adult manner like they do. It would add credibility to this site. Which I think it lacks. Chris could be the moderator.

[drewdane]

I think we should start a F88 forum here. We can discuss important issues in a adult manner like they do. It would add credibility to this site. Which I think it lacks. Chris could be the moderator.

Hmmm.. maybe not.

[DKEG]

Hmmm.. maybe not.
Well #%$@ you then.....wait I think we just started the forum. Chris, Drew is making me uncomfortable can you please ban him.

[drewdane]

Well #%$@ you then.....wait I think we just started the forum. Chris, Drew is making me uncomfortable can you please ban him.

You're a retart and a moran!

[jabberwocky]

Chris, my ban is permanent, and there was no warning. I didn't need a warning though - I committed "Suicide by Admin".

Once my MORE membership renewal goes through, I'll have a new avatar reflecting my feelings. Don't worry - nothing too inflammatory! ;)Ah. My biggest complaint about MTBRs moderation is their proclivity for deleting posts or banning people entirely without any explanation. If they had posted rules, and someone broke a rule, and they publicly banned them for it, that would be more understandable.

I think we should start a F88 forum here. We can discuss important issues in a adult manner like they do. It would add credibility to this site. Which I think it lacks. Chris could be the moderator.I'd rather be eaten by cannibals. :p

[jabberwocky]

Chris, Drew is making me uncomfortable can you please ban him.I'm waiting for him to commit "suicide by admin". ;)

[Squirrel_Girl]

Are all those smilies from deepcaves? You have the best smilies!I stole, uh, er, copied my favorite smilies off of various other fora. Then I saved them to my website and made a spiffy index page so I can easily get the code to copy into the MORE (or CaveChat) fora. I've lobbied for more smilies here on the MORE forum, but to no avail. Good thing I have an alternative.
http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/squirrel1.gif

[drewdane]

I stole, uh, er, copied my favorite smilies off of various other fora. Then I saved them to my website and made a spiffy index page so I can easily get the code to copy into the MORE (or CaveChat) fora. I've lobbied for more smilies here on the MORE forum, but to no avail. Good thing I have an alternative.
http://www.deepcaves.net/smilies/squirrel1.gif

At a minimum, MORE needs to add a thumbs-up smiley! :thumbsup:

(Edit: How come I couldn't c/p the thumbs-up smiley? I hate computers!)

[sourceofdenial]

After coming from a nonmoderated forum on skiing/biking to a moderated forum, it kinda feels like arriving in Soviet Russia or China.

The beauty of those nonmoderated places is a lot of really good things get done, people can be themselves, and in most cases, it self moderates. People ignore that person, put them on ignore, whatever. If it seems bad, it usually passes in a little time. The ski forums were lots of crap slinging in the summer, quiet in the winter. Happens every year. Honestly, even this place is a bit too uptight for me.

[drewdane]

After coming from a nonmoderated forum on skiing/biking to a moderated forum, it kinda feels like arriving in Soviet Russia or China.
Let me guess: TGR? :eek:

[jfoley]

A lot of the reason for this is that more-mtb.org isn't a "forum site"... we're an advocacy-based club that happens to have created a great & active community on our forums. This community is one of MORE's biggest assets.

We need to remember that we're heavily involved in the community at large and members of that community are frequent visitors to this forum and we need to make sure that we're presenting a face of MORE and mountain biking in general that reflects well on us.

Yeah, sometimes we get a little overzealous about moderation, but it's only because we know we need to go a little further to overcome the false stereotypes that get perpetuated about mountain bikers.

thanks for your time,

joe
md/dc-at-large

After coming from a nonmoderated forum on skiing/biking to a moderated forum, it kinda feels like arriving in Soviet Russia or China.

The beauty of those nonmoderated places is a lot of really good things get done, people can be themselves, and in most cases, it self moderates. People ignore that person, put them on ignore, whatever. If it seems bad, it usually passes in a little time. The ski forums were lots of crap slinging in the summer, quiet in the winter. Happens every year. Honestly, even this place is a bit too uptight for me.

[jabberwocky]

After coming from a nonmoderated forum on skiing/biking to a moderated forum, it kinda feels like arriving in Soviet Russia or China.As a mod, I feel I should respond. The purpose of this forum is different than most. The MORE forum exists as an extension of the club, and is considered part of its public face. As such, we expect that users present themselves in a positive way, and we attempt to moderate to encourage that. We want newbies to feel that they can join in. We really don't moderate very often. The vast majority of our users are mature and well behaved on their own.

Most other boards (like MTBR) exist on their own. They can do whatever they want to attract users. If they feel that light (or no) moderation gets them the best audience, they can do that. Forums are private sites, and owners can make whatever rules they wish.

[sourceofdenial]

Let me guess: TGR? :eek:

Heh, yep. Even back before the exodus from powmag.com

[TiRyder]

MTBR needs F88, whether they like it or not. I don't know if you were on MTBR before F88. All those "total asshats", as you call them kept popping into Passion, General and wherever else and mucking up the bike-related discussion.

Those "total asshats", BTW, include respected members of the bike industry, professional riders, successful businesspeople, meatcutters, scientists, attorneys, doctors, social workers, roofers, geologists, housewives, sales reps, shop wrenches, and any number of other people from all walks of life.

Did "Passion" come together and build a bike for a Katrina victim?

Did the 29er board organize a fundraising drive to donate to anti-slavery organizations in Africa?

Did "General" donate funds to purchase livestock for a 3rd-world community?



You've got it backwards. The vendetta was from the other direction.

I have been on F88 on MTBR and understand that some people like that type of thing, but it is just not something I choose to spend my time on, nor do I think it serves any other purpose on a MTB forum other than to keep certain topics and discussions out of other more bike centered forums. Some people enjoy and appreciate those types of forums and I agree they should have a place to discuss those topics, but why on a MTB forum?

My question is, as a poster to this F88, do you not think it is better to have a forum like this new F88me that is unrestricted and apparently unmoderated, where you are free to post without worry of retribution from Moderators? Or would you rather keep butting heads with other users and moderators on a site whose focus is not political/social/religious, etc.?

I personally dont care if it is there or not, since I dont visit F88, kind of like I personally dont visit the DH forum, since I dont ride DH (yet??) either (but at least it is a bike related forum)

[drewdane]

I have been on F88 on MTBR and understand that some people like that type of thing, but it is just not something I choose to spend my time on,
Fair enough.

nor do I think it serves any other purpose on a MTB forum other than to keep certain topics and discussions out of other more bike centered forums.
That's why it was created.

Some people enjoy and appreciate those types of forums and I agree they should have a place to discuss those topics, but why on a MTB forum?
Why not? Plus, see above. People are going to post OT stuff to their favorite board whether or not it's appropriate. Every niche forum has - or should have - an "OT" board for this very purpose. Like Chit Chat! :)

My question is, as a poster to this F88, do you not think it is better to have a forum like this new F88me that is unrestricted and apparently unmoderated, where you are free to post without worry of retribution from Moderators? Or would you rather keep butting heads with other users and moderators on a site whose focus is not political/social/religious, etc.?
It could end up being better, you never know. I do think F88 has grown into something far more than some website's OT board, and therefore has a chance to make a real go at it.

I strongly feel, however, that this is MTBR's loss. I've been with MTBR since the pre-Vbulletin days. Several other banned members are in the industry (including at least one in a position to steer substantial income towards MTBR. Oh well. :rolleyes:) Others still were guilty of nothing more than engaging in a legitimate discussion of a particular manufacterer's Quality Control/Customer Service issues.


I personally dont care if it is there or not, since I dont visit F88, kind of like I personally dont visit the DH forum, since I dont ride DH (yet??) either (but at least it is a bike related forum)
I should point out - again - that this issue really isn't about F88. This is about how MTBR chose to handle a particular situation, and how they completely dropped the ball, exposing themselves as shills who have chosen their advertisers over the community they created.

[drewdane]

Another reason MTBR blew it: Lookit me posting inane crap all over the place in here! To heck with Empty Beer - MORE needs F88 to save it from my blathering!

[jabberwocky]

I should point out - again - that this issue really isn't about F88. This is about how MTBR chose to handle a particular situation, and how they completely dropped the ball, exposing themselves as shills who have chosen their advertisers over the community they created.It sounds like a big part of the problem was that they engaged in no moderation during the event (leading people to believe it was ok), and then when it finally built up to a huge problem, they responded by overreacting and banning a bunch of people.

Its hard to have it both ways. You need to either have a very active moderation presence with clear rules (to eliminate small problems before they become big problems), or you need to be hands off and deal with the repercussions.

I can see it from the MTBR admins point of view though: if a small section of users is creating a huge headache on the one hand while not contributing much to the site on the other, jettisoning them has a certain logic. It makes the site look bad though, because they are siding with an advertiser over their users.

Drew, do you have any links to the "vendetta" threads between Ibex and F88 members? I can't find any. Just curious what sparked the whole thing.

[TiRyder]

Fair enough.


That's why it was created.


Why not? Plus, see above. People are going to post OT stuff to their favorite board whether or not it's appropriate. Every niche forum has - or should have - an "OT" board for this very purpose. Like Chit Chat! :)


It could end up being better, you never know. I do think F88 has grown into something far more than some website's OT board, and therefore has a chance to make a real go at it.

I strongly feel, however, that this is MTBR's loss. I've been with MTBR since the pre-Vbulletin days. Several other banned members are in the industry (including at least one in a position to steer substantial income towards MTBR. Oh well. :rolleyes:) Others still were guilty of nothing more than engaging in a legitimate discussion of a particular manufacterer's Quality Control/Customer Service issues.



I should point out - again - that this issue really isn't about F88. This is about how MTBR chose to handle a particular situation, and how they completely dropped the ball, exposing themselves as shills who have chosen their advertisers over the community they created.

I want to clarify that I am just asking for informative purposes.

This is the first I learned of any issue and I dont really have any idea about what is going on with your banning, F88, or any other current conflicts between F88 and MTBR. I do think that some posters in F88 are simply flamethrowers looking to aggravate others, but there are those types on all forums on all boards

I understand the need for OT and chit chat forums on borards, but just thought that F88 had evolved to the point of warranting its own site.

Sux being banned though, I was following your drive for the pint glasses. guess you wont be buying any of those!?!?!

[drewdane]

Drew, do you have any links to the "vendetta" threads between Ibex and F88 members? I can't find any. Just curious what sparked the whole thing.
This thread (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=390343&page=2) provides a nice synopsis, including relevant links.

Note it was moved to the "site feedback" forum, AKA Siberia. Technically, that's where it belongs. In reality, it's an effective way to silence anybody who doesn't like what's going on over there. :mad:

[drewdane]

I want to clarify that I am just asking for informative purposes.

This is the first I learned of any issue and I dont really have any idea about what is going on with your banning, F88, or any other current conflicts between F88 and MTBR. I do think that some posters in F88 are simply flamethrowers looking to aggravate others, but there are those types on all forums on all boards

I understand the need for OT and chit chat forums on borards, but just thought that F88 had evolved to the point of warranting its own site.

No worries, I understand where you were coming from.

Sux being banned though
Don't feel too bad about me - I knew what I was doing when I posted what I did (post has since been deleted, and I don't blame them. The pansies.)

I was following your drive for the pint glasses. guess you wont be buying any of those!?!?!
No, I don't suppose I will. Too bad - they'll be pretty cool glasses if Francine ever gets off his butt and orders a run. :D

[Vecsus]

F88 generates discontent that bleeds into other portions of the forum. We (the mods at MTBR) tried to contain the cancer by disconnecting F88 from the forums search function. Users searching for useful bike-related information were getting back F88 posts that were offensive and detrimental to new riders seeking helpful information.

Unfortunately, that didn't do enough. Hence the discussions of cutting F88 out of the site completely. MTBR is under no obligation to maintain any sub-forum it does not wish to. It's not like members are paying to access the site.

As far as being "shills who have chosen their advertisers over the community they created"....not sure where that's coming from. Take a look at the large number of companies that have their own sub-forums on MTBR and then look at the small list of companies that actually pay to advertise on the site. Big difference. If MTBR was a corporate shill then there would be no sub-forum for the non-sponsors. None of the Mods delete of edit posts based on who pays ad fees.

And as far as your perma-ban Drewdane, it wasn't a snap decision by the super-mods over there. After reading your profanity-laden rant after they issued a temporary ban I can't really blame them for making it permanent.

[CRAIG2]

MTBR. Bleh. I stopped even going to that site months ago. I just got tired of every 3rd or 4th post being from prepubescent a$$clown calling some other a$$clown a fag or something. Oh, and then there was some mountain bike club / group in Iraq that they all began to rag on, so add more bigots to that list. I have no problem with rants, just do it intelligently. That seems to be beyond MTBR...

[Vecsus]

I agree Craig. The mods to what they can to keep the place clean but then get accused of over-moderation and censorship. What confuses me is why people go out of their way to erect barriers and create narrow sub-sets within the cycling community. There are so many little gangs on MTBR: SS, 29er, DH, Weight Weenies, etc. People conduct raids on other sub-forums to derail theads and lay out troll bait. I don't care for freeride/DH bikes or biking so I simply don't go into that forum. Yet some people insist on starting fights with other riders. Makes no damn sense at all.

I visit the MTBR forums a lot because I am currently an under-employed bike geek. (Underemployed because of my rapidly-approaching assignment...they are not bothering to give me much to do so I surf). It's sort of a love/hate relationship.

[drewdane]

F88 generates discontent that bleeds into other portions of the forum. We (the mods at MTBR) tried to contain the cancer by disconnecting F88 from the forums search function.

Fact: At no point did MTBR attempt to warn us, tell us what they were going to do, or respond in any serious fashion to inquiries after the fact. The timing of it was quite interesting as well, coming as it did directly on the heels of the original Ibex shenanigans. How did MTBR expect us to react?

Plus, I think you have your history a little wrong. Search was disconnected after one tool - one - kicked up a fuss in the General forum because he was getting F88 links when he clicked on "New Posts" on the MTBR home page. Poor baby. Poor, poor, delicate little flower.

Users searching for useful bike-related information were getting back F88 posts that were offensive and detrimental to new riders seeking helpful information.
No, users searching for IBEX were getting F88 posts. Where was the Search disconnect and mass banning after people searching for Ellsworth or On-One got back posts that were detrimental to seeking helpful information?

Furthermore, if you read the history, you will find many, many posts EXPLICITLY pointing out that the issues with Ibex had nothing to do with the bikes themselves, but with Jack. The same Jack who came to F88 and started this whole damn thing because one person - one - made a flippant, offhand comment in a thread otherwise completely unrelated to bikes, much less Ibex. A comment that any rational business person would have dismissed out of hand.

Unfortunately, that didn't do enough. Hence the discussions of cutting F88 out of the site completely. MTBR is under no obligation to maintain any sub-forum it does not wish to. It's not like members are paying to access the site.
Ah, the old "it's their site, they can do what they want". :rolleyes: You're absolutely correct: they can. Whether their actions are right is what's at issue.

As far as being "shills who have chosen their advertisers over the community they created"....not sure where that's coming from. Take a look at the large number of companies that have their own sub-forums on MTBR and then look at the small list of companies that actually pay to advertise on the site. Big difference. If MTBR was a corporate shill then there would be no sub-forum for the non-sponsors. None of the Mods delete of edit posts based on who pays ad fees.
Fact: Ibex has had at least one thread locked because THEIR OWN CUSTOMERS weren't buying their line about pretty serious Quality Control issues. I have never seen that in any other forum on MTBR. Why is Ibex so special?

Meanwhile, Ellsworth is mercilessly trashed over the course of years; Mintbikes and Matt Chester are dragged through the mud on the 29er forum; there's apparently an On-One thread floating around out there which has multiple dimbulbs piling on (EDIT: I located it - it was locked after all. I guess MTBR can do the right thing on occasion:p)- yet no thread locks, no bannings. Why is that? What does Ibex have that they do not? Oh yeah - they aren't advertisers on MTBR. WHAT A KOINKIDINK!

Furthermore, Jack of Ibex and his supporters were just as guilty of bad behaviour as any member of F88. Yet who gets hit by mass bannings? Where's the "Make this end" thread in the Ibex forum? Where's the MTBR warning to Jack to quit being such a freaking jerk? It takes two to tango, and MTBR picked sides.

And as far as your perma-ban Drewdane, it wasn't a snap decision by the super-mods over there. After reading your profanity-laden rant after they issued a temporary ban I can't really blame them for making it permanent.
I don't really care about that. As I mentioned earlier, it was suicide by Admin. I knew what I was doing.

I was unaware, however, of any temporary ban preceding the permanent one. Are you sure you're thinking of the right person? I mean, we are talking about a 5-minute time span or thereabouts. :p

Now, I really didn't log on today with the intent to turn MORE into an installment of "As MTBR Turns (Drew's stomach)". Feel free to reply if you like, I'm going back to hijacking other threads with inane one-liners. :D

[jabberwocky]

What confuses me is why people go out of their way to erect barriers and create narrow sub-sets within the cycling community. There are so many little gangs on MTBR: SS, 29er, DH, Weight Weenies, etc. People conduct raids on other sub-forums to derail theads and lay out troll bait.I actually stopped visiting the 29er forum because the old mods there were one of the worst perpetrators of the "us vs them" mentality.

[drewdane]

I agree Craig. The mods to what they can to keep the place clean but then get accused of over-moderation and censorship. What confuses me is why people go out of their way to erect barriers and create narrow sub-sets within the cycling community. There are so many little gangs on MTBR: SS, 29er, DH, Weight Weenies, etc.

In all seriousness, I think this is a real problem with MTBR. I remember (in the GOOD OLD DAYS, by Gum!) when MTBR was General, Beginners, Passion and Tech talk - that's all. In my view, there was much more of a sense of community before they started adding regional forums, and manufacturer forums, and SS, and 29er, and F88, and... I can totally see how setting up so many subforums would seem like a good idea - if I was MTBR, I'd have probably done the same. But I do think it has made the place a little less cohesive.

(OK, now I'm done! :D)

[Vecsus]

The problem with the "good old days" was that people kept posting the same damn questions over and over because posts would get buried 4-pages back by mid-day. That is why they created the sub-forums - to allow users to actually see a thread about the newest tires or lightest cranks before it got pushed off the front page.

F88 generates about 80% of the reported posts over there. It wasn't just a few threads that prompted the decision. There's no problem with people argueing politics but when links to gay porn and racist websites are being posted, things have gotten out of hand. And that was by users with high post counts...not just normal forum spam.

And yes, your ban was just 14 days to start with but they decided to make it permanent. From the discussions on the mod forum it looked like they had told you it was temp. Guess not :p

[TiRyder]

Makes no damn sense at all.


You better watch it buddy, profanity laden posts will get you banned!!!:D

[CRAIG2]

...and in the grand scheme of things, does getting thrown out of any forum really have any impact? If you're shaking your head 'yes', or currently seeking therapy as a result, you should really turn off your computer and go get a life. :D

[saxman]

I visit and participate in f88 frequently, although I don't really have a high post count. As long as you don't take it too personally, it's fun going head to head with your fellow armchair politicos. If you can keep yourself from flaming, you can actually get into some very in depth and often enlightening discussions.

The folks there are passionate, and they will definitely circle the wagons when one of them comes under attack, even if it is a person they would otherwise flame. What happened was you had two or three folks get banned, and then when others questioned it, they got banned, too, and then it steamrolled into various others going into "Suicide by Admin". Heck, even the f88 moderator pulled the pin today. Love them or hate them, the people who got banned were the soul of f88. Without their presence, the forum isn't nearly as entertaining.

There's an amazing parallel between MTBR and Sax on the Web. Like MTBR, SOTW started off small and kept creating more sub-forums, which diluted a lot of the cohesiveness of the "original" community. Also like MTBR, there was an individual, in this case a saxophone dealer/repairman, whose business practices were questionable. When he came under attack, a number of users got banned. They formed their own site, claiming a lot of the same things the f88 expatriates claim.

Then, a funny thing happened. Even with the folks that were banned off the forum, questions still arose about the dealer/repairman's credibility from other sources. Claiming he was being unfairly persecuted, he picked up his ball and formed a forum of his own. Wonder if that is going to happen this time?

I do agree that there should NOT be an f88-style forum here on MORE. I also think we should try to avoid creating any more sub-forums, lest we lose the cohesion that exists on this site.

[macdaid]

Coolio new Avatar Drew....