Road Group

[martin]

OK - so I'm finally sucking it up and building a road bike - just want your thoghts on groups;

I have Campy on my fixed gear; Had an Ultegra mix on my cross bike years ago; and ride SRAM on my MTB bike (switched from Shimano years back and never looked back)

However, now that I'm going to have a dedicated road bike I want to hear what everyone thinks. I may be opening a can of worms here - but helpful advice would be appreciated.

Me

[vamodeo]

I do like the SRAM on my mtb, but I think the biggest bang for the road bike buck is Shimano Ultegra, and that's coming from a man with Campy on my 3 road bikes.

Vince

OK - so I'm finally sucking it up and building a road bike - just want your thoghts on groups;

I have Campy on my fixed gear; Had an Ultegra mix on my cross bike years ago; and ride SRAM on my MTB bike (switched from Shimano years back and never looked back)

However, now that I'm going to have a dedicated road bike I want to hear what everyone thinks. I may be opening a can of worms here - but helpful advice would be appreciated.

Me

[werace424]

I was recommended to go with Shimano for a couple of reasons.

Shimano= Bang for buck, you can match any line of a component with another. (105 w/ ultegra, ect.), and availability.

SRAM=Expensive??

Campy=Harder to access parts in less populated areas? Cost? and you cannot mix and match their different lines.

Wrong or right?

Be safe on the road down there!

[DaveG]

OK - so I'm finally sucking it up and building a road bike - just want your thoghts on groups;

I have Campy on my fixed gear; Had an Ultegra mix on my cross bike years ago; and ride SRAM on my MTB bike (switched from Shimano years back and never looked back)

However, now that I'm going to have a dedicated road bike I want to hear what everyone thinks. I may be opening a can of worms here - but helpful advice would be appreciated.

Me


There are a lot of differences in the shifters between the three. I'd make sure to test them out to see what your preferences are.

For example, I HATE the Campy shifters, and would never consider buying a campy group because of that. I haven't really tried the SRAM shifters, and I like the Shimano shifters. I'm a SRAM man on my MTB bike, but run Shimano on my road bike.


I think Shimano Ultegra or 105 is the biggest bang for the buck assuming you like the shifting.

Dave

[BikerMiker]

I just built up a Moots Compact for the shop and it was my first time installing a full SRAM Force group on a naked frame. Nice stuff. I like the clean lines on the bars with all the internal routing (under tape).

Campy is easy to rebuild (if you have a mechanic that can do it) and can last forever. I'm a big fan.

Shimano has narrow hoods and superlight actuation.

I think that hood ergonomics are the #1 reason to buy one or the other. You need to book some extended test-rides on these bikes so that you can figure out which fits you the best.

Campy/SRAM hoods are pretty close. Shimano is the outlier. SRAM shifting is kinda heavy like the Campy stuff but is no prob for mtn bikers who like SRAM mtn shifting. Shimano is the outlier on shift action. The new SRAM Red stuff is super-$$$ but worth it, if you ask me. Sub 2kg group.

Shimano is going with internal housing routing for 2009 on Dura Ace so you may want to wait.

Let me know if I can help you out with this Martin!

mike

[sourceofdenial]

What kind of bike is it going on?

If you go Campy, get ready to buy dedicated Campy tools.

SRAM stuff is very nice, I'll probably put it on my race rig for the fall. I've done several seasons of road and cross racing on some Ultegra 10 and its held up just fine. My next grouppo will probably be SRAM for the road though, I unfortunately got to use it after a mishap at GMSR two years ago on a pit bike and it was quite nice to ride/race on.

[philman]

I've talked to several people who have gone with the SRAM stuff and really like it. [U]However [U] the SRAM gruppo's popularity appears to have put some real downward pressure on Ultegra stuff. I built a road bike off of ebay this winter and picked up new bike takeoffs at some great prices. At the end of the day Ultegra works great and lasts a long time. I use a SRAM setup on my mtb's, but couldn't justify paying the premium to be an early adopter on my road bike.

Pat (the cheapskate)

[Auger N]

Indeed - this is an important consideration - what kid of frame are you hanging the parts on? If it is Italian, it would be sacrilidgious to put Shimano on it. (Plus all those snobby roadies may make fun of you and toss their frame pump in your spokes.)

I am a Campy guy myself and have it on both my road and cyclocross bikes. You either understand it or you don't. If you can tell the difference between an Acura NSX and a Ferrari 355, you might understand what I am getting at in terms of the difference in feel between Campy and Shimano.

Besides, how many Shimano tattoos do you see out there?

[tuba_transport]

I was recommended to go with Shimano for a couple of reasons.

Shimano= Bang for buck, you can match any line of a component with another. (105 w/ ultegra, ect.), and availability.

SRAM=Expensive??

Campy=Harder to access parts in less populated areas? Cost? and you cannot mix and match their different lines.

Wrong or right?

Be safe on the road down there!

That is a good summary of what this newb road rider has discovered also. I have mostly Shimano 105 on my new road bike and it has been awesome so far. The only part I am not totally happy with are the generic no name brand brakes the bike came with. Stopping power ain't all that great or smooth.

But shifting is super smooth with 105 front and Ultegra rear and 105 shifters.

I would never spend money again on Shimano MTB shifters or derailleurs. SRAM rules king there. But their road stuff is awesome.

[markie]

Even inveterate campyophiles have been looking at the new SRAM stuff. Richard Sachs is speccing bikes with SRAM these days, which says a lot.

[eloach]

I have Ultegra (2005) on my road bike and 105 (2006) on my cross bikes. I have NO complaints. They just work and need very little adjustment.

If you spent a bundle on the frame I could see spending a bundle on components, but if you're not going out road racing and didn't drop $2K+ on the frame, Ultegra should cover it and can be had for a very reasonable price.

The difference between Ultegra and 105, IMO, is the smoothness and the fact that the Ultegra is a little lighter and a little stronger. The RDR is the biggest difference that I notice between the two groups (I don't have Shimano cranks), but I also like the feel of the Ultegra shifters better than the 105s.

[CRAIG2]

Best all around bang for your buck? Definitely go with Ultegra. Tried and true. You can even race it - weight weenies seem to like the higher end stuff, but that's just because they have higher credit card limits, and well, they're weenies. :p:D I just like what works, and works well. It's (Ultegra) a really good balance between weight, quality, looks, and price. Need, or want, to save a little more $$? Go with a 105 / Ultegra mix - both are solid component choices. Hey, with the price of gas going up, those extra few dollars in your wallet might be welcomed.

Check out Ferrari only if you're having a severe mid-life crisis and simply have an overwhelming urge to overcompensate for something else in life you're lacking. ;)

[jabberwocky]

I have Shimano 105 on my cross bike. It works fine. I've ridden a bike with SRAM Force and it was amazing. A friend of mine at work is a hardcore roadie, and after test riding SRAM Red all he can talk about is how amazing it is compared to his Ultegra.

The big downside to SRAM road stuff is its cost. Shimano Ultegra and DuraAce can be had comparably cheap (check probikekits group costs on those).

I've never ridden campy. I personally have no desire for parts with no compatibility and odd tool requirements.

Personally, if I was spending a lot of money, I would probably go for a mix of SRAM stuff (Red and Force). If I was on a budget, I'd go Ultegra. I think SRAMs shifter ergonomics are better, but its worth trying them both as they are different.

[DaveG]

The only part I am not totally happy with are the generic no name brand brakes the bike came with. Stopping power ain't all that great or smooth.

You might want to try different pads; that can make a lot of difference.

Dave

[Dirt]

I will say at the beginning that I really am biased against Shimano. To be honest, all of these groups are good. anything over $700 for the group is very good. The differences are personal preferences.

For me the shifting is what makes the difference. The cranks, bottom brackets and brakes work pretty much the same. I can easily get used to them all. Generally the Derailleurs work pretty well too. What makes the difference for me is the ergonomics of the shifters.

It is hard to compare oranges and oranges with road groups. Ride many of them and see what you like. Ergonomis of the shifters is really big.

The thing that you need to understand is that SRAM groups don't match up the same way that Campy and Shimano do.

I hate the ergonomics of Shimano. I hate the feeling of the STI levers when you have to do a panic stop. The cable sticking out of the side of the shifter rubs me the wrong way. From an asthetic point of view, they are just ugly. I hate that you have to run the levers pointing up so high in order to get the right platform transition from the tops to the hoods. I haven't ridden the latest DuraAce, but last year's stuff wasn't much fun to try to trim the front derailleur. To be fair, that is a shortcoming of most road groups.

Ultegra works very similarly to Dura Ace. Again, I haven't ridden the 2008 Ultegra, but I really didn't like the function of any of the 2007 Ultegra bikes that I test rode.

I mildly dislike Campy's shifter ergonomics. The downshift button is in the wrong place for me. I accidentally hit it when I get out of the saddle. I like the look of them and the function of the Record and Chorus are great. I kinda miss the ability to drop many gears at once with the Centaur shifters. I rarely do it, but I like the option to do it.

SRAM Red ergonomics are perfect. I like that you can adjust the shifter ergonomics. It isn't easy to do, but you can change it. I like the doubletap way of shifting. It takes a little getting used to, but it is much easier for me. Red got the front shifter working really well. It trims off the big ring instead of the little ring.

Force is really good, but they didn't get the front derailleur trimming right with the shifters. It works kinda like Shimano stuff except with the shifter cable in the right place. I've just had a quick test ride on a Rival bike. It worked very much like the Force stuff.

Attached you'll find a comparison of 2008 Group prices. I'm sure you can find them cheaper, but it at least gives you the different levels of the groups.

Shimano 105 goes for a little less than SRAM Rival.

Pete

[jabberwocky]

And keep in mind that Shimano group prices sometimes include hubs and pedals, whereas SRAM groups definitely don't (since SRAM doesn't make hubs or pedals).

[Dirt]

Shimano= Bang for buck, you can match any line of a component with another. (105 w/ ultegra, ect.), and availability.
Comparing features SRAM stuff is a hair more expensive, but it is a way better value when you look at how it feels and rides.

Shimano stuff tends to be disposable. Their small parts go out of production long before Campy stuff does. Instead of buying small parts for your older shimano derailleur, you end up buying a new derailleur. You can improvise, though, so all hope is not lost if you strip your cable clamp nut on your 3year old DuraAce Derailleur. If, however, I wanted to replace the composit bearings in my old DA jockey pulleys, I wouldn't be able to. I tried. The bearings went out of production 2 years ago and no-one has them. I can put new ones on, but the new ones are not the same size, so I'd have to put jockey pulleys from a much lower end group on them.

SRAM=Expensive??
See above.

SRAM doesn't really have a track record with parts availability yet... Though 2 years ago I got replacement slides for my 1987 vintage SRAM road shifters. They are a part that wore out after many years. Though the parts are no longer made, someone in a warehouse found a set and sent them to me.

Campy=Harder to access parts in less populated areas? Cost? and you cannot mix and match their different lines. !
Campy Record is pretty expensive and the stuff is kinda delicate... mostly just the front derailleur.

The cool thing about campy is that the parts ARE available. Okay, maybe you can't get them at Joe's Lawn Mower and Bike Repair in Spud Hump, Wyoming, but you can buy pretty much any individual part years after it was manufactured. I just purchased the outside lock nut for my 1988 campy cobalto brakes... complete with cute little cobalt blue stone, so it looks orginal.

You can mix and match any of the 10 speed stuff. Lots of guys like the Centaur shifters because they're lighter than the Record and Chorus shifters and they don't use the ability to jump many gears that is missing from Centaur.

Sorry to ramble on. You asked, so I answered.

Again, remember my disclaimer that I tend to be very opinionated on these things and I have a chip on my shoulder about Shimano. I am currently riding a bike with Dura Ace derailleurs and shifters... but they're something I mixed and matched together because I despise STI and really didn't want to buy all new Campy stuff a few years back.

Pete

[Dirt]

And keep in mind that Shimano group prices sometimes include hubs and pedals, whereas SRAM groups definitely don't (since SRAM doesn't make hubs or pedals).

Good point. Some places also don't include the Bottom Bracket in the Group prices since you can choose if you want Ceramic or conventional.

[tuba_transport]

You might want to try different pads; that can make a lot of difference.

Dave

I also want different drop bars. The ones which came on the big feel very awkward in the drops. I feel like I am squashed. I think I need the drops to stretch me out more while still retaining my comfortable brake hoods position.

Once I get a better idea of which bars to buy for the fit I want I'll make a trip back to Bike Lane and have the parts switched out. I think the labor is free during the initial period where I am still getting the bike fit setup. I'll double check first.

[Dirt]

I also want different drop bars. The ones which came on the big feel very awkward in the drops. I feel like I am squashed. I think I need the drops to stretch me out more while still retaining my comfortable brake hoods position.

Once I get a better idea of which bars to buy for the fit I want I'll make a trip back to Bike Lane and have the parts switched out. I think the labor is free during the initial period where I am still getting the bike fit setup. I'll double check first.
Spend a little time getting used to the drops you have. Riding in the drops is a weird feeling at first.

Okay. I'm really shutting up now.

Pete

[jabberwocky]

I also want different drop bars. The ones which came on the big feel very awkward in the drops. I feel like I am squashed. I think I need the drops to stretch me out more while still retaining my comfortable brake hoods position.Check the width. For whatever reason, lots of road bikes are specced with ridiculously narrow drop bars. I've found that wider bars are more comfortable. I think they should be about the same width as your shoulders.

Try playing with stem height, too. You can flip the stem upside down and remove spacers to lower it.

[tuba_transport]

Spend a little time getting used to the drops you have. Riding in the drops is a weird feeling at first.

That is sorta my plan. So far I have about 300 miles on the bike and not too much of that is in the drops. I just feel like I am compressed when I take that position. I feel like my shoulders should be lower than they are when I ride down there.

[tuba_transport]

Check the width. For whatever reason, lots of road bikes are specced with ridiculously narrow drop bars. I've found that wider bars are more comfortable. I think they should be about the same width as your shoulders.

Try playing with stem height, too. You can flip the stem upside down and remove spacers to lower it.

The bike came speced with a 110mm stem I think and 42mm bars. I already had the bars swapped to 44mm before I took the bike home. I tried bikes with both widths at the shop and the 44 felt much better. Todd measured my shoulders and determined the textbook size would be a 45mm for me. So I could have possibly gone with 44mm or 46mm. The 44mm width feels good to me.

During the fit process we swapped the stem out for a 90mm because at that time I felt like the brake hoods were too far out front. I was leaning over too far and putting a lot of weight on my hands I thought. Perhaps part of that is strength in the back which might continue to build up as I ride in the road position more.

I might need to extend the stem back out a bit and play with bringing the brake hoods back in on the bar and adjust the current bar position. That might give me more reach in the drops while not stretching me out too much on the brake hoods.

Either way I think I might head out to Bike Lane on Wednesday to work out the fit. They told me to ride the bike for a few hundred or so miles and then come back to fine tune the fit since I had never ridden a road bike before. I was not sure at the time what a road bike should feel like. I am still learning, but I think the bars need some fine tuning.

[sourceofdenial]

Dirt, do you hate your Shimano stuff enough that you'd want to sell me your front STI shifter? Please? I need another one.

The one thing that sucks about all the gruppos is the amount of wear and tear and money you put into replacing those parts. Between full road and cross seasons, not even counting mountain biking, I usually burn through a 2-3 cassettes, a handful of chains, and a set of chainrings a year. It gets expensive. Its even more expensive when you run high end components that dont mismatch with the lower end replaceable parts.

[Dirt]

Dirt, do you hate your Shimano stuff enough that you'd want to sell me your front STI shifter? Please? I need another one.
Don't own any STI anymore. I use DA Bar-end shifters.

[martin]

What kind of bike is it going on?

Having a new frame built out in Colorado - light steel...

[martin]

BTW - Thanks everyone for the great input...

I used to have an ultegra combo on my cross bike and always ended up with sore hands, so I don;t know of Shimano is going to do it for me - my fixie has campy on it but obviously none of the "shifting" mechs and my three MTBs all have SRAM - looks like right now it's between these two - ionce I get a few miles I'll decide; I do appreciate all of your input - I'll keep you posted with what I end up doing.

[Dirt]

Hi Martin.

Your road bike sounds awesome and similar to what I'm doing. My frame is being built in Washington though. Actually it is still only on paper so far.

Obviously from my posts I prefer SRAM. I don't really have the budget or need for a full Red group, so I did a mix and match group. I started with SRAM Force and substituted the cranks and shifters from Red. That gets me the chainrings that I like and the shifters that trim off of the big ring instead of the small ring.

The second thing is a matter of personal preference. If you tend to cross chain in the small ring more than the big ring, then the Force shifters will more likely work better for you. I wish they could build in a 4th detente so that it would do either. I don't normally cross chain drastically... I never use big-big or small-small. I do, however, like to have the front derailleur trimmed appropriately and it would allow for instances when the derailleur isn't in perfect adjustment.

In theory components arrive today or tomorrow. I haven't any news, so there may be something out of stock.

Such is life.

Pete

[Auger N]

I weighed in yesterday but was a bit time compressed and went mostly for humor. Now I have a bot more time, but still wanted to include some humor -

First, from the "www.campyonly.com" website, a humorous review of why Campy is simply better than Shimano (although note that this particular bit is somewhat dated as some of the component groups no longer exist and the bit about nobody ever winning the Tour de France on Shimano is no longer true - although it did take Lance Armstrong to be the guy to do it).

Hey, if you ride Campagnolo, it's obvious--it's much, much better than ShimaNO! But have you ever considered all of the many things that make Campy better? Well, we have, and we've listed a few below:

Manufacturing
ShimaNO: Built by faceless robots made of steel recycled from old Subarus. Workers spend their lunch hours reading thick, lurid graphic novels.

Campagnolo: Built by warm, loveable Italian robots made of steel recycled from old Columbus racing framesets. Workers spend their lunch hours reading classic Italian fiction, "La Gazetta Dello Sport," and Bici Sport.



Packaging
ShimaNO: Machine-packed by automated equipment.

Campagnolo: Lovingly packed by beautiful young Italian girls wearing white cotton gloves. Boxes made from recycled copies of "La Gazetta Dello Sport"



Gruppo Names
ShimaNO: Dull, unimaginative names, mostly based on numbers (105, 600, etc.)

Campagnolo: Exciting, romantic names based on Italian words and figures from mythology (Chorus, Athena, Veloce, etc.)



Component Finish
ShimaNO: Paint and epoxy applied by automated machinery.

Campagnolo: Highly polished by handsome Italian workers who call their mothers every week.



Brake/Shift Lever Cable Routing
ShimaNO: Big, ugly cables hanging out all over the place. Aesthetic and aerodynamic nightmare.

Campagnolo: Clean, aero routing places cables under the handlebar tape.



Logical Integrated Shift/Brake Levers
ShimaNO: Upshift and downshift levers are in the same place, reach for an upshift, and you could just as easily downshift!

Campagnolo: Upshift and downshift controls are intelligently separated. No confusion here, just great shifting! Ergopower also allows you to "sweep" from the largest to smallest cog in one motion! ShimaNO doesn't!



Interchangeable Parts
ShimaNO: Amost nothing interchanges. Dura-Ace can't be mixed with Ultregra, road won't mix with off-road, last year's stuff won't fit this year's components. Don't even think of trying to fix anything, because even ShimaNO can't keep track of all the spare parts you'd need.

Campagnolo: Mix and match to your heart's content. Record's cogs match Chorus, which matches everything else in the entire component line! Want to use Athena shifters on your Chorus bike? Go ahead, it works! Spare parts galore, too, should anything ever break! (Although it almost never does!)



Who Uses It
ShimaNO: Not used by a Tour de France winner in memory.

Campagnolo: Used by Miguel Indurain in five successive Tour de France victories! 26 of the last 30 Tours have been won on Campagnolo! Winners in the Giro and the Olympics use Campy, too!



History and Tradition!

ShimaNO: Who the heck is Mr. ShimaNO? A great industrialist, perhaps, but a cyclist?

Campagnolo: Tullio Campagnolo was a great Italian cyclist before he began inventing the technology that created the modern bicycle! We've provided a brief overview of Campagnolo history with our own Unofficial History.



Need we say more?
Well, listen to what Bicycling magazine had to say about ShimaNO and Campagnolo in their May 1995 issue:

"The way I see it, Ergopower shifting is designed for big, meaty fingers in the heat of battle. Namby-pamby mineral-water sippers should stick to dainty ShimaNO STI. Of course, STI will be wearing out just as Ergopower is breaking in, but it's up to you."

Need more proof? How about famed framebuilder Richard Sachs, quoted in the May '95 issue of Road Bike Action magazine:

"[Campagnolo] is all I use. I'm making a certain type of high-quality frame and it makes no sense to put anything else on except for Campagnolo. It goes back to the ‘70s when it was the only group to use, and other than some occasional faux pas, I believe they are unparalleled in the components they offer, and it works best for my bikes."

Yes, Richard, you're right, except that Campagnolo will work best for everybody's bike!

Just one more point on this - check out the website. Then I challenge you to find something similar for Shimano or SRAM.

OK, bottom line - if you are new to the road you will most likely be happy with whatever gruppo you get. All Shimano, SRAM and Campy are amazingly full of technology and will do the jobs of shifting, braking and propelling your road rig quite well.

As other posters have noted, not having any experience with these brands (positive or negative) a lot of it for you will come down to which shifting method you like best. Go and test ride bikes with SRAM. Shimano and Campy. (Although I must say I am saddened that finding a stock Campy-equipped bike will be a challenge. Shimano, much like Microsoft vs. Apple, clearly dominates the market creating a challenge for the smaller manufacturers to get their components spec'd on a bike at a similar price. I won't call it dumping, but it's pretty close. And while I am happy to see the emergence of a third component manufacturer, SRAM, I am disappointed that it appears to be taking market share out of Campy rather than denting Shimano sales - again, because of dubious corporate prices and economies of scale that clearly benefit Shimano.)

Your biggest interface will be with the shifter/brake lever component. All three are different, but get the job done. SRAM is probably the simplest and from reviews (check out cyclingnews.com, for example) seems to have the easiest actuation. The "Exact Actuation" feature (a 1:1 cable pull ratio) is a nice feature too, and appears to make shift more reliable and less susceptible to adjustments and cable contamination (much like SRAM off-road groups). Shimano is probably next easiest to actuate, which leads to many comments that it is butter smooth. Personally, I find the two shift levers together to be harder (but not impossible) to select when wearing heavy winter gloves. Also, I do sometimes catch a short-finger summer glove in the mechanism when shifting the brake lever. Out of the box, Campy is not nearly as smooth, but proponents say that it will be "breaking in" when Shimano is "breaking down"! (I'd probably agree with that, as my 2001 Tiagra shifters didn't make it even a year - too much plastic - and, of course, the whole job needed to be replaced. The Ultegra did fine for years after that.) Easy shift actuation is a personal preference however, and not necessarily a mark of superiority. Interestingly, Campy has just introduced its own "Red" group which is the Record group with heavier springs to make shifts that much more harder to actuate. Supposedly this version is only being offered to professional racers.

Some other nice things about Campy:

- the brake release is on the brake lever, not the calipers. If you just put your front wheel on the bike and start rolling without flipping the lever, you still have full brake modulation from the levers and can reset the release from the levers without having to reach down to the calipers on the roll. (This is especially nice for me, since I live on a hill.)

- clean cable routing just looks better (both SRAM and Campy have this, although Shimano is reportedly finally introducing this in 2008 on Dura Ace only, 16 years after the debut of STI). Of course, you MAY like the Shimano cable routing and consider it a handy place to clip your laminated route sheet!:D

- the "sweep" shifting feature (allowing more than one gear change at a time) is very nice, especially for a cross bike.

- SRAM and Campy levers seem less susceptible to damage. Those "bullet" STI shifters are pretty, but the Ultegra ones I used to have had plastic end caps that were always being shattered in a crash or garage tip-over. If you can get your shop to order them, they are $20 a pop!

Good luck!

[dominicosavio]

Campy=Harder to access parts in less populated areas? Cost? and you cannot mix and match their different lines.

Not true.

Like Auger N, I have record on all my 3 bikes, so I think campy is much much much better than Shimano.

[dominicosavio]

Even inveterate campyophiles have been looking at the new SRAM stuff. Richard Sachs is speccing bikes with SRAM these days, which says a lot.

Vanila road bike couldn't survive in a real road race. His bikes are nice but more for show.

[saba]

Campy on my Orbea and the one thing I can give it credit for as I am a road newbie myself is no missed shifts or skipping that I have from my Shimano on my Yeti. I would say its smooth shifting but not buttery smooth. Both front and rear der work with very little effort and for someone like me who is working on balance hand position and timing on shifting reliability is a big plus