BB shell facing...

[RetroG]

What's the typical charge for a shop to face a bottom bracket vs. getting the tools myself?

[Dirt]

Go to a shop for this. I haven't priced getting it done at a shop lately, but I know the tools will cost many hundreds of dollars. I'd guess that Park's tool is about $400. The process takes less than an hour to do, but most shops charge more than the hourly rate because of wear and tear on the tools. My guess would be $50-60 to have it done. I'm sure some of the local shop folks can step up and tell us.

Good luck.

Pete

[jon_baler]

My LBS (Avalon Cycles) has done for free it with the purchase of a frame or bb.

[rciracing]

Just curious but what makes you think you need it faced? Most high end frames come faced and reamed.

[RetroG]

Just curious but what makes you think you need it faced? Most high end frames come faced and reamed.

2 sets of RF outboard bearings have failed. Visible paint on face.

[jabberwocky]

As others have said, the tool is 400-500 dollars and you'll likely never use it again. A shop shouldn't be too expensive.

Also, just because Raceface bearings have failed doesn't necessarily mean that facing will solve the problems (although it can't hurt). In my experience, failing is what Raceface bearings do. You might try swapping in some higher quality bearings. Phil Wood sells high quality ones that can be pressed in, and Enduro Fork Seals also sells bearings (as well as cups with bearings already installed). If you buy just the bearings, you'll need to find someone with the tool to swap them. I know a few people in MORE have the tool and might be willing to do the swap for a six-pack or something.

[rciracing]

As others have said, the tool is 400-500 dollars and you'll likely never use it again. A shop shouldn't be too expensive.

Also, just because Raceface bearings have failed doesn't necessarily mean that facing will solve the problems (although it can't hurt). In my experience, failing is what Raceface bearings do. You might try swapping in some higher quality bearings. Phil Wood sells high quality ones that can be pressed in, and Enduro Fork Seals also sells bearings (as well as cups with bearings already installed). If you buy just the bearings, you'll need to find someone with the tool to swap them. I know a few people in MORE have the tool and might be willing to do the swap for a six-pack or something.

I agree might be other variables. If you use a LBS, use a LBS that you have a good relationship. If not, you can certainly get taken advantage of. Years ago, before I bought a headset press, the LBS charged $50 for installing a King! Call around and compare prices....or find a MORE member w/ the tool.

But if paint is visible and not consistent, can't he just sand it down w/ sand paper?

[allencb]

FWIW, Surly claims their frames are faced prior to painting and all you need to do is remove the paint with a razor blade. Might be worth giving that a try.

Chris

[jabberwocky]

Yeah, most headtubes and bottom brackets are machined nowadays. If thats true of yours, the paint can be removed with a razor blade which should leave a flat, square surface.

I'll note that even with a perfectly faced BB shell, I was lucky to get 6 months out of Raceface outboard bottom brackets. They just aren't very high quality. I have a set of Enduro cups that are over a year old now and are still working perfectly.

Just food for thought.

[g_barr]

...getting the tools myself?
Whatever a shop charges is likely to be much less than the tools (you can use one or the other):

Park BFS-1 (http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=25&item=BFS%2D1)

USD 299.99
USD 319.95
USD 329.99
Park BTS-1 (http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=25&item=BTS%2D1)

USD 479.95
USD 519.99
USD 539.99

But if paint is visible and not consistent, can't he just sand it down w/ sand paper?
Like Chris said, use a sharp razor blade. Sanding is likely to mess things up more. Just make sure you thoroughly clean paint chips... off before installing the BB.

[RetroG]

Also, just because Raceface bearings have failed doesn't necessarily mean that facing will solve the problems.

I can only rule out one prob. at a time. I don't know if the bearings are crap, but I do know that the bb shell needs facing just by looking at it.

[rciracing]

I can only rule out one prob. at a time. I don't know if the bearings are crap, but I do know that the bb shell needs facing just by looking at it.

Is it a new frame and what kind is it? If its an old frame and you just upgraded to Raceface, then check all the threads too. If you end up taking it to a LBS, then you may consider having the BB threads chased.

[BikerMiker]

Sounds odd. Missing spacers? Riding it loose? I can't figure out what is causing you to roll through bearings so quickly. In our experience, we send those back to Race Face when they fail that quickly while we try and fix the problem. Race Face makes some of the best stuff (especially in their opinion) and they are usually happy to oblige us. We also order a lot of their stuff. Never underestimate the value of quid pro quo in this industry: it really IS important.

I have almost two years of racing/riding on my first Race Face bb from April 2006. I have pulled it only once (Oct) to check it out, assuming it was time to go but it felt perfect. I still have the replacement waiting in the tool box.

I don't think it's your frame. I could be wrong but you might have had lighting strike twice with a bad bb. What model/year bike is it?

mike

[jabberwocky]

I can only rule out one prob. at a time. I don't know if the bearings are crap, but I do know that the bb shell needs facing just by looking at it.Is it an aluminum frame? What make/model/year? Does the bottom bracket piece look machined (i.e., is it a block of metal that has obviously been milled down to its current shape, or does the visible metal on the end have an obvious milled surface)?

If it is machined, try scraping the paint off with a razorblade. It should only take a minute or two. Machined BB shells were perfectly flat and square prior to paint.

I have almost two years of racing/riding on my first Race Face bb from April 2006. I have pulled it only once (Oct) to check it out, assuming it was time to go but it felt perfect. I still have the replacement waiting in the tool box.Man, I went through 3 Raceface bottom brackets in 18 months on my Turner. I've opened up relatively new ones and seen how bad the grease had already gotten. Honestly, I think the sealing and stock grease is just plain shoddy on their bottom brackets. They are cheap to replace at least. I never even thought to try to warranty them.

The Enduro ones that I have now have a better dust shield (rubber coated metal rather than plastic), better grease (high quality waterproof stuff) and are way easier to service (so you can take them apart and clean them and apply new grease every once in a while). I gave mine their one year service recently and they were in very good shape inside. I've opened Raceface bottom brackets at the 6 month mark that had no grease left inside, just lots of grit and rust.

[DaveG]

Man, I went through 3 Raceface bottom brackets in 18 months on my Turner.

Clearly you need a Specialized then :eek:

Seriously though, I tend to put more credence in bad reports of bearing life than good reports. Everybody gets lucky sometimes (I.e. Mike) but having multiple bearings quickly fail is more telling.


I had a friend that drove a Dodge Omni in highschool. The thing had 150K miles on it w/o ever having a problem. IT was a good car, but I wouldn't want to suggest that ALL Omni's were good cars.

[RetroG]

I'll get the paint off the shell face and try the Enduro's. Haven't read a single decent review on the RF X-Type bb. Thanks for the input.

[g_barr]

Until RetroG provides more details, photos...

...better grease (high quality waterproof stuff)...
Who has the best lube and grease? Phil? Park? Pedro? Penzoil?

[gddavid]

Clearly you need a Specialized then :eek:

Seriously though, I tend to put more credence in bad reports of bearing life than good reports. Everybody gets lucky sometimes (I.e. Mike) but having multiple bearings quickly fail is more telling.


I had a friend that drove a Dodge Omni in highschool. The thing had 150K miles on it w/o ever having a problem. IT was a good car, but I wouldn't want to suggest that ALL Omni's were good cars.

Omni's were some tough cars, as were the old rabbits but every body loves VW and hates Dodge so it is a great example of market branding. (It doesn't help that dodge has put out alot of crap and horrible transmissions).

Derail over

[rciracing]

I'll get the paint off the shell face and try the Enduro's. Haven't read a single decent review on the RF X-Type bb. Thanks for the input.

If you end up switching, I've had good luck w/ FSA and Shimano XTR.

[jabberwocky]

Clearly you need a Specialized then :eek:

Seriously though, I tend to put more credence in bad reports of bearing life than good reports. Everybody gets lucky sometimes (I.e. Mike) but having multiple bearings quickly fail is more telling.To be fair, I had one drive-side cup that kept going long after the other one imploded (in fact, I think that cup is still in my parts bin). Very strange. I'm sure there are some people who have good luck with them. After replacing mine 3 times though I thought I'd give something else a try. :)

I've heard that Shimano cups are a bit better too (they are interchangeable). While I do have Shimano cranks, the bikes they are on don't see nearly the same level of abuse as the Raceface so I can't really make a comparison. That said, I've never had to replace a Shimano bottom bracket.

I think the real advantage of the Enduros is that they are way easier to service. The dust shield on the Raceface and Shimano is plastic, and almost impossible to remove without breaking it. The Enduro uses a metal shield that comes right off, allowing you to then pop the seal off the bearing and squirt new grease in there.

[DaveG]

Omni's were some tough cars, as were the old rabbits but every body loves VW and hates Dodge so it is a great example of market branding. (It doesn't help that dodge has put out alot of crap and horrible transmissions).

Derail over

Heh. I remember talking to a mechanic at around the same time that said he kept two of them around so that he could keep one running.

Back to the originally scheduled programming....

[jon_baler]

Until RetroG provides more details, photos...


Who has the best lube and grease? Phil? Park? Pedro? Penzoil?


Here is what I would consider trying:
http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=128695

[rciracing]

[
I think the real advantage of the Enduros is that they are way easier to service. The dust shield on the Raceface and Shimano is plastic, and almost impossible to remove without breaking it. The Enduro uses a metal shield that comes right off, allowing you to then pop the seal off the bearing and squirt new grease in there.[/QUOTE]

Enduros are nicer but expensive. When servicing my Shimanos or anything else that is tricky to get to, I always just use lube or a thinner mixture of lube and grease. You can squeeze it or pour it in. I find that a needle will get it in there easier than a grease gun.

[jabberwocky]

Here is what I would consider trying:
http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=128695That looks like a good upgrade, but I think its really expensive for what you are getting. Raceface BBs are around 30 dollars. The bearings are 24 each direct from Phil. 30+24+24=78. So Speedgoat is charging like 50+ bucks to swap the bearings. I know there are a few people with the necessary tools to swap the bearings in MORE. I'd bet they would be willing to do the swap for a lot less than 50 dollars (plus you can reuse the existing cups if you have them, saving another $30).

Enduros are nicer but expensive. When servicing my Shimanos or anything else that is tricky to get to, I always just use lube or a thinner mixture of lube and grease. You can squeeze it or pour it in. I find that a needle will get it in there easier than a grease gun.I've never dismantled a Shimano, but on the Raceface BBs you can't even see the bearing until the dust shield has been removed, and thats the part thats a colossal pain the ass. Plus thin oil isn't going to stay in there very long once water starts working its way in.

The Enduros (with cups) were a bit under 60 shipped when I bought mine. Twice the price, but mine have lasted twice as long and are still going. I'd say they are worth it. As always, your mileage may vary. :)

[rciracing]

[QUOTE=jabberwocky;102961]That looks like a good upgrade, but I think its really expensive for what you are getting. Raceface BBs are around 30 dollars. The bearings are 24 each direct from Phil. 30+24+24=78. So Speedgoat is charging like 50+ bucks to swap the bearings. I know there are a few people with the necessary tools to swap the bearings in MORE. I'd bet they would be willing to do the swap for a lot less than 50 dollars (plus you can reuse the existing cups if you have them, saving another $30).

I've never dismantled a Shimano, but on the Raceface BBs you can't even see the bearing until the dust shield has been removed, and thats the part thats a colossal pain the ass. Plus thin oil isn't going to stay in there very long once water starts working its way in.

The tip is something I learned from both Shimano and Sram mechanics. It was brought up while talking about hub bearings. While straight grease will last longer, this sure beats running things dry. Use thinner lube/oil first to clean it out. Then use a thicker mixture. Just keep on injecting it in there until it squirts out.

[jabberwocky]

The tip is something I learned from both Shimano and Sram mechanics. It was brought up while talking about hub bearings. While straight grease will last longer, this sure beats running things dry. Use thinner lube/oil first to clean it out. Then use a thicker mixture. Just keep on injecting it in there until it squirts out.How do you get it in there without removing the dust shield? :confused: On Raceface cups, theres a plastic dust shield covering the entire face of the bearing. The inside face is inaccessible because its up against the cup. I don't see how you could get even a needle tip into the bearing without removing the shield, and if you are removing the shield, its only another 20 seconds to pop the actual bearing seal off and put real grease in there.

[rciracing]

How do you get it in there without removing the dust shield? :confused: On Raceface cups, theres a plastic dust shield covering the entire face of the bearing. The inside face is inaccessible because its up against the cup. I don't see how you could get even a needle tip into the bearing without removing the shield, and if you are removing the shield, its only another 20 seconds to pop the actual bearing seal off and put real grease in there.

Not sure of the Race Face but the Shimano will crack if you try to pull of the plastic cover. Just gently and slightly pry an edge w/ a small flat head (like the type used for glasses), then inject. Obviously if you can remove the cap, then just remove it and use grease. But I broke a Shimano cap trying to remove it - so now I just use this method. I use the same method on hub and headset bearings. You can also just lay the BB cups or any other bearings on the ground put a thin mixture on the seal or dust cap and just let gravity work.

[yueq]

RF external BB actually comes with Phil Wood grease.

For bearing replacement, I like the $12 Enduro's

http://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp?part=129230

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2192/2315737976_fb34f56e38_o.jpg

[smdubovsky]

Machined BB shells were perfectly flat and square prior to paint.

That is incorrect. It was likely perfectly flat and square prior to welding. All the videos I've seen have the BB shell fully machined before assembly. Its pretty hard to chuck up a whole bike in the lathe and machine afterwards. Once you weld those two big-arse front tubes to it, all bets are off. Luckily, you can easily measure if the two faces aren't parallel w/ mics or even a good set of calipers. Measuring that the bore axis is perpendicular to those faces is far harder (but also far less likely to be wrong).

[philvw]

Who has the best lube and grease? Phil? Park? Pedro? Penzoil?

Rock -n- Roll (http://www.rocklube.com/)

[jabberwocky]

That is incorrect. It was likely perfectly flat and square prior to welding. All the videos I've seen have the BB shell fully machined before assembly. Its pretty hard to chuck up a whole bike in the lathe and machine afterwards. Once you weld those two big-arse front tubes to it, all bets are off. Luckily, you can easily measure if the two faces aren't parallel w/ mics or even a good set of calipers. Measuring that the bore axis is perpendicular to those faces is far harder (but also far less likely to be wrong).So they machine the bottom bracket, but it warps when it is welded? Do they cut the threads after welding?

I base this off the fact that companies have posted on MTBR that their machined bottom bracket shells and headtubes don't need facing. Perhaps those companies do machine after welding?

[g_barr]

Rock -n- Roll (http://www.rocklube.com/)
Oh man was I freaked out when this page opened - I thought WTF did Phil link me to? Is this available locally or only on-line? The story line looks similar to what Phil and Park say - what makes Rock-n-Roll stand out?

[BikerMiker]

I used to write press releases for Mark at Rock N Roll. He's a petro engineer. The web grease (killer stuff, for sure) is E X P E N S I V E! Go buy the blue boat trailer bearing grease. It's designed to be underwater (which you would know if you've ever launched a boat from trailer).

Cheap, great stuff. Speedplay uses it in their pedals when they assemble them. Peak in there and it's BLUE!

Stickier the better...

mike

[philvw]

Oh man was I freaked out when this page opened - I thought WTF did Phil link me to? Is this available locally or only on-line? The story line looks similar to what Phil and Park say - what makes Rock-n-Roll stand out?

Ha ha! I started using the Rock -n- Roll Blue chain lube on recommendation of Tom at The Bicycle Escape in Frederick. I use it on the MTB, road, and fixie. Cleans and lubricates, leaving the chain basically dry, without all the funky black stuff that my (formerly used) Pedro's left. You dribble it on and then polish the chain as clean as you can get it with a cloth. A towel works best, I think it's the nap. My bikes live in the living room of my condo, so I try and keep them a little clean.
When I rebuilt my 'zoke fork using enduro seals, they recommended using super slick grease on assembly, so I bought some, worked well and is compatible with the fork oil. At the same time I decided to buy the super web grease for wheel bearings (I still stick with good old shimano XT hubs) It claims it is 'web like' and wraps around the bearings well and is waterproof. I believe it, when I built my junkyard dog fixie, I put it together with that in all the bearings and if it can make a 35 year old japanese schwinn butter smooth on old bearing, I figure it works! At first it seemed a little bit thinner than some other grease like Phil's but that certainly hasnt been a problem.

[wrench177]

Omni's were some tough cars, as were the old rabbits but every body loves VW and hates Dodge so it is a great example of market branding. (It doesn't help that dodge has put out alot of crap and horrible transmissions).

Derail over
Quick Derail: My Dodge Omni was always over heating and eventually broke in half. My buddies Rabbit had no floor boards or brakes. Not sure which is worse. :D

On subject:
Phil Wood grease and Rock-N-Roll lube are my personal favorites. I know Avalon in G-Town stocked both last time I was in there. I also have the Enduro external BB and love it. It replaced a 1 year old XT unit.

[Dr Phil mmkay]

When I went to TBL to have the headtube on my frame faced, my King hs pressed, and my Boxxer installed, I was charged $35 for the service, and I think they said for BB facing and install was $25. I'm not to familiar with LBS charges but those prices seem reasonable.

[smdubovsky]

So they machine the bottom bracket, but it warps when it is welded? Do they cut the threads after welding?

I base this off the fact that companies have posted on MTBR that their machined bottom bracket shells and headtubes don't need facing. Perhaps those companies do machine after welding?

Threads are most certainly cut when the BB shell is still on the lathe. Its all done easily on a lathe - no tap is used. The sequence is probably: square front face, relieve ID in middle (create butting), thread fully though, 'part' (cut off at a known width - which will leave the far edge square), release collet pressure and feed more stock, repeat. The thread fit class used is pretty sloppy, so the thread being at a small angle after welding is of no consequence. The face is what gets the bearings registered/lined up. The only real reason to 'chase' the threads are to get globs of paint out so the BB cups fit in;)

I suspect better mtb companies reface their tubes after assembly or painting - making them reparallel. If I ran one, I'd do it after assy so I can still use oil on the cutter and fixture the bike. Its too messy/tricky to do after painting w/o messing up the paint. A razorblade to clean up the BB is just the ticket then. You can measure if the planes aren't parallel by using calipers to measure the width is several places around the diameter. Welding always causes metal to shrink so if they aren't faced, the top/front will likely be narrower than the bottom.

FWIW, I use 1.75"OD x 0.095"wall thickness steel for the roll cages (I've built a couple of race cars) Tigging a T-section can cause the ~2' overhangs of the T to bend up to 1/4" if not fixtured heavily. Thats about 7deg! Thin cross sections will be far more (welding sheet metal takes great patience). Metal can move an AMAZING amount when welded. Its the hardest thing to get used to when learning.