Sram vs Shimano...

[macdaid]

Wandering around the net following links at the crankbros site, I encountered this video:

http://www.dhracers.com/media/shimanovssram.mov

A very clear illustration of a functional difference between sram & shimano rear derailleurs.

My question: does this really make a diff, performance wise?
It looks like it would reduce chain-slap, against chainstays, but what else?
Maybe keep the chain from jumping off chainrings? Stop chain suck?

Comments?

[mjbrox]

Wandering around the net following links at the crankbros site, I encountered this video:

http://www.dhracers.com/media/shimanovssram.mov

A very clear illustration of a functional difference between sram & shimano rear derailleurs.

My question: does this really make a diff, performance wise?
It looks like it would reduce chain-slap, against chainstays, but what else?
Maybe keep the chain from jumping off chainrings? Stop chain suck?

Comments?



the decrease in Chain slap was the first thing I noticed when I went to SRAM. Then I noiticed the perfect shifting. Finally I relized that you could stand your gears while shifting

SRAM > Shimano

[BikerMiker]

Oh jeez...

Personal preference. I'm a rapid-rise shimano guy and people think I'm nuts but I've got almost 1k miles on my drivetrain from April 2006.

I like SRAM stuff cuz it stays in adjustment a bit better but I don't like forcing downshifts under power with a thumb lever, I'd rather let the spring gently nudge the chain into lower gears and actually use all of those expensive ramps and cut-outs on your cassette.

Nothing can stop chainsuck but a clean drivetrain, well-lubed with good chain line. A rear derailleur won't do it.

The new Shadow stuff from Shimano is pretty sweet also.

By the way, Dura Ace next year will have der/brake housing in the hoods...

mike

[TiRyder]

I agree with BikerMiker.

I have 1 bike with SRAM X-9 and 1 with Shimano XTR. I really like the way the Sram stuff works, the 1:1 is awesome, but absolutely think the XTR Dual Control with Rapid Rise is the best stuff out there.

They both work great, just two different ways to skin the cat.

Also agree that if you keep a well maintained drivetrain, you shouldnt have any issues with either.

[jabberwocky]

I'm a SRAM fan. I switched from an all-Shimano drivetrain to a SRAM one a while back and never looked back. Its way less finicky to keep adjusted and shifts a lot better. I'm apathetic about rapid rise. I have no trouble shifting up and down perfectly with my X9 stuff, under power or not. And dual control can die in a fire for all I care.

That said, Shimano has improved a lot over the last few years (amazing how actual competition will motivate a company). The two are much closer now. I'll readily admit that a lot comes down to personal preference.

I've personally had terrible experience trying to get Shimano to warranty a faulty part (they basically refused to even discuss it). When I broke a SRAM shifter (my own fault, which I admitted to them) they sent me a whole new one no questions asked. That tends to make me a bit more loyal to SRAM. They've gone out of their way to take care of me when they really didn't have to.

[tuba_transport]

That video is real life in my experiences. I ran both for a while on two different bikes. One Rapid Rise XTR/XT and the other was X-9. I really had to baby the Shimano bike after a bouncy section or a fast rough downhill. The Shimano bounces the chain around and puts me in who knows what gear. If I hammer back on the pedals heading up the next climb after the downhill I grind gears.

With my SRAM stuff no worries. Gear selection stays in place no matter what the trail brings.

I am no SRAM fanboy, but after chewing up a couple of XT and XTR derailleurs I finally said enough is enough.

http://www.more-mtb.org/galleries/gal_imgs/5/0/2/derailer.jpg

[tsunayoshi]

, but absolutely think the XTR Dual Control with Rapid Rise is the best stuff out there.


Trade XT for XTR (my setup) and I couldn't agree more. You will make only the 2nd person besides me I've (sorta) met in the last year that runs Dual Control w/ Rapid Rise.

I'm thinking about upgrading to the Shadow w/ RR to get the slimmer profile.

[rciracing]

Definitely a personal preference issue. I think that most people who switch to Sram and end up prefering it are probably folks who didn't come from full XTR drivetrains. I've used both Sram and Shimano and would choose XTR everytime. If you start w/ XTR, I think most will stay that way. Properly installed and maintained is also key in either case.

[jabberwocky]

I know at least one person who switched from full XTR to Sram and prefers the Sram. My experience with XTR is that functionally, it isn't much different than XT.

Dual control seems to be love/hate. I know people who love it. I personally detest it. I like technical riding too much to have the shifters tied to the brake levers. I much prefer a good hydro lever with nice thumb shifters. It gives you waaaaay more adjustability as to where the brake lever and shifters are in relation to each other and the grips.

I don't get the allure of rapidrise. The bikes I've tried with it didn't seem to shift any easier than normal Shimano drivetrains. Its just the chain moves the other direction when you hit the thumb lever. Its ok, I guess.

What really sells me on Sram is that it stays in gear on rough downhills, stays in adjustment for months on end, takes an enormous amount of punishment and isn't that expensive. I know several people who switched from Shimano to Sram. I don't know any who switched back. That says a lot, to me.

[macdaid]

Good feedback. Thanks.

I've just gotten a sram cassette, and chain. Will be running these through an xtr rear der. which has been servicable, but is old-ish. I'll look at a sram der when the xtr goes south. Y'all make them sound really good.

) /\ \/ |:

[soreback]

i agree its personal preference. i have 1 bike with SRAM X.9 setup, 1 bike with XT Dual control shifters and XT RD. and 1 bike with XTR Rapid Fire shifters and XTR rear derailleur.

i dont really care for the SRAM. I dont like the triggers both having to be pushed in the same direction, versus the rapidfire. the SRAM setup just doesnt shift nearly as well as the other two shimano equipped bikes. i havent quite decided if i like the ergonomics of the dual control setup but it shifts smoother than the SRAM setup. all three bikes are maintained by the same LBS, so i dont think its matter of who or how they were setup and maintained.

[tuba_transport]

Good feedback. Thanks.

I've just gotten a sram cassette, and chain. Will be running these

There is another can of worms. I have run several different flavors of SRAM cassettes and I greatly prefer Shimano XT cassettes to just about anything. Although I did have a 12-30, I think it was, XTR 8 speed cassette on a bike and it had some of the best shifting and gear spacing I have ever enjoyed.

In general the SRAM cassettes have wide wide spacing on the big end and don't shift as readily and smoothly as XT in my experience. Only disadvantage of XT cassettes are their freakin expensive prices and I rarely see them marked down much at all. Shimano XT is the Chris King of cassettes for me though.

SRAM chains have been great for me. Though I use Wippermann Connex 9x1 stainless steel chains now and seem to get longer life and reliability out of them.

[Rodneyec]

I rode XT for years and constantly had to get it re-adjusted. I switched to X9 (rear D, shifters, PG 990 cassette, and 970 chain) The only problems I ran into was breaking the chain (it's never a good idea to shift while out of the saddle on an uphill :o) and I bent the rear d hanger. The LBS could not get a replacement hanger from the MFG for a little while, so, they just bent the old one back and made a slight adjustment to the rear D and it worked fine. I did eventually receive the new hanger, but, I have yet to put it on as the X9 has continued to shift flawlessly on the "bent" hanger. You can't beat that for the price!

[jon_baler]

All this talk of SRAM goodness, makes me wonder if I should give gears another try on my mountain bike....Nope, spending too much money on other bike projects.

[allencb]

Back when I ran gears (Usually Shimano LX level stuff), I never found myself adjusting my gears frequently. Maybe I got lucky, but stuff just worked. I replaced cables about once a year, maybe less, and kept things clean. I even took a stick to the derailleur that cracked the cage and was able to complete the ride. I just couldn't get into my two largest cogs. I was still able to shift through the rest of the cluster without any problems.

I'm currently running a SRAM cassette on my road bike. It seems to work well enough. Otherwise, I'm running full Shimano there too. The MTB is a SS, but I'm using a Shimano freewheel. ;)

Chris

[BikerMiker]

It's impossible to account for the taste of individuals. We all have different riding styles so some stuff works better for some than for others, it's not about what is 'better' or 'worse.' Everyone has different experiences with different stuff and it's all ok.

Run whatcha brung. Nobody will notice your derailleur if you are off the front, in the middle or off the back cuz it's SINGLETRACK, baby!

SRAM has way better customer service and that's a fact! But I remain a Shimano guy... But ONLY SRAM chains...

mike

[werace424]

Oh jeez...

Personal preference. I'm a rapid-rise shimano guy and people think I'm nuts but I've got almost 1k miles on my drivetrain from April 2006.

I like SRAM stuff cuz it stays in adjustment a bit better but I don't like forcing downshifts under power with a thumb lever, I'd rather let the spring gently nudge the chain into lower gears and actually use all of those expensive ramps and cut-outs on your cassette.

Nothing can stop chainsuck but a clean drivetrain, well-lubed with good chain line. A rear derailleur won't do it.

The new Shadow stuff from Shimano is pretty sweet also....

mike

I also like rapid rise. But am considering the switch to SRAM. The question I have is does the new Shimano Shadow help eliminate the chain SLAP as much as the SRAM. The two design look very similar. Also, Unless I was misinformed, the Shadow does not come with the rapid rise ability. :confused:


AND....for what it is worth, once I went to a full length cable housing for the rear D, all of my adjustment woes went away. So if you are currently having problems with your Shimano, try replacing the cable housing and running it from the shifter all the way to rear D. It keeps it really clean!

[g_barr]

I've run Shimano Ds with SRAM cassettes/chains. I just picked up some SRAM power links even though pins and chain tools are in my kit. Now to thread jack...

Is there really any technical need to run 100% Shimano or 100% SRAM? Since I don't really use my granny 'cog', I'm thinking of trying an SRAM 11-26, 11-28 or 12-26. Shimano doesn't appear to have a MTB cassette with less than 32 or 34 teeth. I'd rather not run an 8-speed cassette on a 9-speed rear either.

I also like Hyperglide chains and haven't had significant issues running them on SRAM cassettes. I'm not so good that'd I would notice the difference between 80% and 100% shifting efficiency. But does mixing the chain and cassette cause a significant difference?

[tsunayoshi]

Also, Unless I was misinformed, the Shadow does not come with the rapid rise ability. :confused:


I was about to say that I saw two different Shadow model on their website (one Top normal and one Low-Normal), but apparently I was on crack because I checked again and it looks like you are right :(

There are 2 models, but they are both Top normal, just with different cage lengths.

Now I'm bummed.

[jabberwocky]

Is there really any technical need to run 100% Shimano or 100% SRAM? Since I don't really use my granny 'cog', I'm thinking of trying an SRAM 11-26, 11-28 or 12-26. Shimano doesn't appear to have a MTB cassette with less than 32 or 34 teeth. I'd rather not run an 8-speed cassette on a 9-speed rear either.In general you can mix and match. You do need to make sure the parts are compatible (regular Sram shifters aren't compatible with Shimano rear derailleurs and vice versa, 8 speed cassettes won't work with 9-speed derailleurs, etc.). In general, Sram and Shimano cassettes are interchangeable, as are their chains and front derailleurs. Sram does make shifters that are compatible with Shimano rear derailleurs too.

If you want less than a 32t granny you are probably looking at road cassettes. Why not just ditch the granny up front and go to a 1x9 with a 12-32t rear? That gives you a pretty usable range of gears, and allows you to ditch some weight by losing the front shift pod, cabling and derailleur (you might need to add some sort of chainguide though depending on your setup).

You can run a road cassette on a MTB, btw. Downhillers do it all the time.

[allencb]

Is there really any technical need to run 100% Shimano or 100% SRAM? Since I don't really use my granny 'cog', I'm thinking of trying an SRAM 11-26, 11-28 or 12-26. Shimano doesn't appear to have a MTB cassette with less than 32 or 34 teeth. I'd rather not run an 8-speed cassette on a 9-speed rear either.


Get a 9spd road cassette.

Chris

[BikerMiker]

Yeah, no Shadow Rapidrise... yet.

mike

[g_barr]

Get a 9spd road cassette.
That's what got me thinking about it. I had the cassette off my Allez and I just spin crazy in a 22x32 combo. A 22x28 isn't so bad but I still feel like I'm carrying around two wasted gears. I think the Allez has a PG-850 so it didn't go on my Stumpy. Road cassettes are stepped nicely too - it's irritating to downshift for a hill and spin out before getting halfway up because I've gone up 3 teeth. I do notice that much.

I didn't see a 9-speed Shimano 105 (or above) road cassette on their web site.

...ditch the granny up front and go to a 1x9 with a 12-32t rear?

You can run a road cassette on a MTB, btw. Downhillers do it all the time.
I'm not taking anything off the front. BikerMiker pulled off mission impossible to get me OEM cranks from 2003! Besides that, I've been daydreaming about single speed.

It seems to me cassettes are all similar. I rode with a MOREon at FH who was running a Dura-Ace cassette very nicely. The SRAM PG-970DH (11-26) sure is pretty but it's pricey for this experiment. Interesting, their MTB PG-950 has an 11-26 option while their road PG-950 apparently doesn't.

[nocro]

In general you can mix and match.

Just figured I would share my experience with mixin and matchin.

I run barrel shifters, and for the longest time ran SRAM shorty rockets with Shimano XT rear derailleur (both rapid rise and not), SRAM PC-58 chain and Shimano XT cassette. This was on several different steel hard tail frames.

I was never really that impressed by the shifting. Ghost shifting under tension; sometimes requiring shifting 2 gears, then back one; occasional chain suck. My equipment tends to be beat up through consistent use, and never really gets all that clean. Hence the XT level of componetry. I don't race, and I felt that XTR was a race lite level of component with worse wear characteristics than XT.

I recently (thanks Loren!) got a SRAM X.0 rear derailleur. I've been running it for about a year on my steel seven sola, and it is a tremendous improvement. I still run the SRAM chain and the XT rear cassette.

On the Turner RFX that I recently built, I put an old XT derailleur on it, knowing that I will destroy that derailleur when I crash and bloody myself terribly. So it is a throwaway. When I do that (and hopefully avoid much bodily damage) I'll replace it with an X.9.

It works for me. YMMV

[jabberwocky]

I'm not taking anything off the front. BikerMiker pulled off mission impossible to get me OEM cranks from 2003! Besides that, I've been daydreaming about single speed.

It seems to me cassettes are all similar. I rode with a MOREon at FH who was running a Dura-Ace cassette very nicely. The SRAM PG-970DH (11-26) sure is pretty but it's pricey for this experiment. Interesting, their MTB PG-950 has an 11-26 option while their road PG-950 apparently doesn't.Honestly, I don't think you gain anything useful going from a 32 to a 26 in the back. You get a few extra ratios between 11 and 26, but I can't say I've ever wished for more ratios there (hell, I'm usually jumping two gears at a time because the existing ones are too close together). You aren't saving much weight and you aren't making the drivetrain less complex.

I don't use my granny up front very often, but there are a few rides every year (Fruita/Moab and long Shed days) where I'm glad to have it.

If you want to simplify, remove the granny from the front (you can use the same cranks), ditch the front shifter and derailleur and run a regular MTB cassette in back. That gets you the widest spread of gears, simplifies the drivetrain and saves some weight. Running a 2 ring setup with a road cassette on a mountainbike seems horribly inefficient from a complexity and weight standpoint.

Just my opinion, of course. :)

[jed]

FWIW, I prefer Sram to Shimano. I have raced on both the '07 XTR stuff and Sram X0, and if I was going to pimp out a bike I'd go with Sram. The shifting is crisper and it requires less maintenance. Same for the mid and lower levels (XT vs X9, etc.) But I'm a sponsored racer so I just run whatever I get. I haven't gotten Rapid Rise or Grip Shift yet, but if I did I would probably at least try it. It really doesn't matter all that much.

Supposedly chains last 2x as long with Rapid Rise, so if you happen to dig it, you have that going for you.

I have run Sram chains on all manner of Sram and Shimano cassettes with either Sram or Shimano shifters with no issues.

If you aren't using all your gears out back just take the granny ring off and run 2x9. 32x34 is a decent granny gear. It depends what you are used to, if you like to front shift a lot a triple with a road cassette might be cool.