rant

[gddavid]

Ok, I have been trying to make a concerted effort to buy more goods from local bike shops, especially on regular maintenance items, but I feel like I just got screwed. I usually buy brake cables individually and housing by the foot off the roll at local shops. I went to pick some up over lunch as we are putting a friends bike together tonight after work and couldn't buy it in bulk as I used to and was handed a kit. It seemed steep to pay $26 for what I consider basic quality stuff, but it didn't really hit me till I got back to my desk and checked the price at an online place, $13 for the exact same brand, model. Maybe I'm being unreasonable but this is a bit rediculus to me. It's my fault for not buying from the shop close to home that has given me great service and I could feel better about spending a little bit more.

[Dirt]

I recently purchased 2 brake cables and 6 feet of housing at a local bike shop and paid under $15.

Pete

[Cerberus]

You've paid a convenience markup. I hate when I don't plan accordingly and am forced into that type of situation. Just recently I was picking up a bottom bracket. Found the same model both online and at another bike shop for half as much as another well known place.

[rsosborn]

Ok, I have been trying to make a concerted effort to buy more goods from local bike shops, especially on regular maintenance items, but I feel like I just got screwed. I usually buy brake cables individually and housing by the foot off the roll at local shops. I went to pick some up over lunch as we are putting a friends bike together tonight after work and couldn't buy it in bulk as I used to and was handed a kit. It seemed steep to pay $26 for what I consider basic quality stuff, but it didn't really hit me till I got back to my desk and checked the price at an online place, $13 for the exact same brand, model. Maybe I'm being unreasonable but this is a bit rediculus to me. It's my fault for not buying from the shop close to home that has given me great service and I could feel better about spending a little bit more.

i've had some of the same problems with the LBS. in a year now, i've had two bike purchases that were really questionable.

in one case, they sold me a poorly assembled bike. in another, they were very unclear of the sizing. after three hours at the shop i got it home and adjusted everything. i found a BIG difference in the sizing.

[CRAIG2]

You've paid a convenience markup.

Ditto. No, you're just not going to find those bottom-of-the-barrel warehouse price deals at your LBS. That's just simple economics. Sorry!

[jabberwocky]

Yes, but if you need to warranty that cable kit it will be a painless process. ;)

Seriously, consumable tend to be marked up more than other parts at LBS's. Tires, tubes, cables, pads, etc. Stuff that people might need fast. I've learned to keep a stock of all those parts on hand at home. If you need it fast, you pay the higher price.

Double the price is admitably a pretty big markup.

[Dirt]

There are lots of good local bike shops in this area. It sounds like some of you are not shopping at them.

I generally spend a little more when I shop there as opposed to ordering on-line, but it isn't monumentally different when you take into account shipping and the wait time.

Pete

[CRAIG2]

Well, like everything else, things are only worth what the market will yield. ;)

[Dirt]

Motivation when shopping is important. Don't shop at a LBS because someone guilts you into it. You'll end up resenting that purchase... no matter how small it is.

Shop at a local bike shop if they give you service and value that is important to you.

If you don't get that value, regardless of where you shop, and you make the purchase anyways, the shop is not the one to blame.

Pete

[Vecsus]

I am about 30/70 when it comes to LBS versus online purchases. When I need something that might need to be exchanged for a different size, like a stem, then I buy at an LBS. I like to get wheels done locally so I can bring them back for retensioning. But if I want a set of Avid mech brakes for a new build...then I buy online because prices are so much cheaper.

I would also add that I only buy from established online sources. Places like Speedgoat, Jenson, Greenfish, etc. I try to avoid eBay unless it's from a very well-established outlet.

[BikerMiker]

I'm surprised that you couldn't buy bulk stuff. That seems odd. At least I know it wasn't City Bikes!

We keep the Dura Ace/XTR cable/housing kits around because people actually request those. I can't believe anyone would pay that much for teflon cables and grey housing but what the h*ll do I know?!

mike

[blacknell]

As noted, the consumables are probably marked up more than most because 1) that's what moves, and 2) that's usually the full extent of most riders' purchases. I don't really begrudge that. The margin needs to come from somewhere, and if I can get a lower price on my components because the legions of guys with rusty Treks pay a little more? That's okay by me.

I recently ran into a hell of a markup, though - the nameplates for Ultegra shifters. Stopped in the Bailey's Crossroads Performance while the other half shopped at Trader Joe's, and asked if they happened to have some of those nameplates on hand. For the uninitiated, they're a purely cosmetic component of the shifter - a rather tiny and uncomplicated piece of plastic. I managed to have scratched the hell out of them (this is why you shouldn't flip your road bike to work on it . . .). Had looked them up earlier in the week at Jensonusa.com, and found them to be about $15, shipped. Anyway, I thought I'd see if Performance happened to have them in stock. Sure they did. For ~$54 for the pair, out the door. To his credit, the shop manager laughed at that. So did I. No sale. There's margin, and then there's rEdiculousness.

[gddavid]

I'm surprised that you couldn't buy bulk stuff. That seems odd. At least I know it wasn't City Bikes!

We keep the Dura Ace/XTR cable/housing kits around because people actually request those. I can't believe anyone would pay that much for teflon cables and grey housing but what the h*ll do I know?!

mike

I was surprised too, I usually buy the bulk stuff from this place, they said they quit doing it, I would have guessed they would profit more by selling off the roll than prepackaged stuff. I'll admit it is silly to complain about $13 considering the overall cost of equipment but I just felt like complaining and honestly the shop isn't all that friendly either.

[CRAIG2]

We still pay $4 for a cup of coffee.... Hmmmm.....

[jabberwocky]

Solution:

Head on over to AEBike.com. Buy a 50 meter filebox of jagwire brake housing (http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=details&sku=CA4270) for 40 bucks. Never worry about brake housing again.

I did the same thing with derailleur housing. Its good quality stuff, and 50 meters should last a really long time. Thats about 165 feet of housing.

[DaveG]

We still pay $4 for a cup of coffee.... Hmmmm.....

I pay 4 bucks for a Latte; that's half milk baby!

[ridethewomble]

There are lots of good local bike shops in this area. It sounds like some of you are not shopping at them.
I stopped going to a particular local shop over the brake cable issue. My brother was in town for a visit, we needed the cable, and this shop RAKED HIM OVER THE COALS. It was penny-wise and pound-foolish on their part, because I haven't been back since. I was a pretty loyal customer until that day. The shop that did it is not a MORE sponsor.

On the other hand, I was just in Conte's (MORE Gold Sponsor), and they had a couple boxes of bulk cable. I haven't bought cable from them, but I've never felt ripped off when I have purchased other consumables there. I just got new cones and bearings for some cup-n-cone hubs I have, and I was happy with the price. In addition, I was able pour a bunch of cones on the counter, and leave there darned sure I was going to rebuild my hub with the right parts.

I didn't check the online price for the cones, but the ability to put my hands on the parts at time of purchase made the transaction mutually beneficial at the price I paid.

In other words, there are good shops around to counter the stinkers.

[CRAIG2]

I pay 4 bucks for a Latte; that's half milk baby!

Ah, yes, and that makes me feel much better.... heheheheheh

[brian_brox]

On the other hand, I was just in Conte's (MORE Gold Sponsor), and they had a couple boxes of bulk cable. I haven't bought cable from them, but I've never felt ripped off when I have purchased other consumables there. Conte's is great about small parts, screws and bolts. Not only do they ususally have them on hand, but they don't kill you on the price.

[crack monkey]

I was pleasantly surprised that Performance (Reston) had front disc brake adpaters in stock. A whole drawer of them, in various sizes, for $9, which is about what they go for online.

This was after checking with several other local shops that didn't have them in stock.

[piperj]

OK, so this is down here in Richmond, but had to chime in...

I finally decided to pull the trigger on a new wheelset, thought it would be cool to learn how to build them myself. I have had very good experiences with some of the LBS, so in trying to keep the business local, I did a little calling around...

Hubs: No one could beat the online deal for the hubs. No brainer.

Rims: Called one of the three shops with excellent service, they didn't carry the rims I was looking for. Stopped in the other shop. They said they could order them. When I asked about price, it was a bit higher than the deal I found online. When I told them, they checked out the online price, and then brought their price down to where "rims from LBS" = "rims from online source + shipping".

They went out of their way to keep my business, they got it... :D

[blacknell]

I stopped going to a particular local shop over the brake cable issue. My brother was in town for a visit, we needed the cable, and this shop RAKED HIM OVER THE COALS. It was penny-wise and pound-foolish on their part, because I haven't been back since. I was a pretty loyal customer until that day. The shop that did it is not a MORE sponsor.

Any reason not to name the shop? While I, myself, have occasionally left places unnamed in relating bad experiences (in those instances, it was because I don't normally use the the places, and they seemed to have a half-decent or better rep), I'm comfortable being explicit because I think it will help my fellow riders here. Conte's has really satisfied me in a wide range of situations, Revolution has gradually gone downhill (from a good start), and I detest Big Wheel on Lee Highway with a white hot burning passion. My hope is that my willingness to name these places will lend some credibility to my opinions and assist people accordingly.

(And RTW, this wasn't really aimed at you. Just touched off by your post :)).

~

Oh, and agreed about Conte's. Just in last night to grab a band-clamp adapter for a road bike. Online price: $16-24. Out the door price at Conte's with MORE discount (reliably applied without asking): $14.50

[ridethewomble]

Any reason not to name the shop?
Yeah, that was on purpose. I have no problem naming names when it's to give some praise. I hesitate to name names on a message board when it comes to criticism, though. Who knows? It may have been the decision of a manager who is long gone, or something like that.

I will say this - if you're in Arlington, and you need something, you'll do better, based on my experience, sticking with MORE sponsors. I've never been a customer over at Big Wheel.

[rsosborn]

Any reason not to name the shop? While I, myself, have occasionally left places unnamed in relating bad experiences (in those instances, it was because I don't normally use the the places, and they seemed to have a half-decent or better rep), I'm comfortable being explicit because I think it will help my fellow riders here. Conte's has really satisfied me in a wide range of situations, Revolution has gradually gone downhill (from a good start), and I detest Big Wheel on Lee Highway with a white hot burning passion. My hope is that my willingness to name these places will lend some credibility to my opinions and assist people accordingly.


i was really impressed with the old bike manager (brian) at the fairfax circle "hudson trail outfitters". a few mechanics at pentagon row "hudson trail" are decent. just about anyone at the tenleytown store is pretty good.

aside from a few staff, the people are "performance bike stores" simply seem out to sell you something. not to see if something is what you need, to solve a problem. the irstuff is inexpensive though.

i contrast this to overall outdoor stores (IE hiking/camping). the guys in "hudson trail's" outdoor department have more than once said i should not buy something there. i might want to grab it at "wal-mart" for $5.

once they realize i know something about the equipment, they're pretty straight forward. they know they won't push you into anything. they also know when something is overpriced.

[jon_baler]

a certain dc shop recently charged my GF $9 for a 29er tube. ouch.

oh well, i make a lot of larger purchases online to save money and time. So I don't mind overpaying a few dollars here and there on low price items.

[Vecsus]

We still pay $4 for a cup of coffee.... Hmmmm.....

No, people pay $4.00 for a liquid dessert with whipped cream on top. Any caffinated beverage that requires hyphenated words to order is not a "coffee".

Stuck-up coffee Snob: "Yes, I would like a half-caf grande soy low-foam macchiato, extra hot"

Real Coffee Drinker: " Large coffee please"
Stuck-up Starbucks Employee "You mean Venti Coffee"
Real Coffee Drinker: "Whatever, it's the largest cup you have right? well then it's a large"

[allroy]

I pay 4 bucks for a Latte; that's half milk baby!

I'm total DIY (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/classic.cfm), I liked this model because it came in stainless steel with a brushed finish. It's amazing how much of a difference there is between SS and the composite and aluminum ones, you can really tell a difference in your espresso. I won't even get into the Pannarello style frother...

thread jack over, couldn't resist ;)

[jvanbrecht]

I'm total DIY (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/classic.cfm), I liked this model because it came in stainless steel with a brushed finish. It's amazing how much of a difference there is between SS and the composite and aluminum ones, you can really tell a difference in your espresso. I won't even get into the Pannarello style frother...

thread jack over, couldn't resist ;)

Kim bought one of those machines (not the same one you got), from some shop (it was a clearance item for the new years model) for $50... I am not sure if she has even used it yet.. but it looks pretty in our new kitchen :)

[jvanbrecht]

I am guessing Mike could probably answer this best, since I am not sure how bicycle shops work their profit margins, but I am guessing it is similar to computer shops (I used to work at CompUSA during the dot.bomb era when I lost my job at a startup)

Basically, the profits on large ticket items (actual pc's and laptops, and to some extent printers where they actually sell at below cost) is razor thin, I mean we are talking between 1 and 3% profit. The profit margin on accessories is where they make their money, which can sometimes be in the area of 2000 to 3000%

I will use rounded IDE cables (whether or not you know what they are). They sold at compusa for $29.99 to $40 depending on the length you wanted. Cost price on those... $2.99 (I know this because back when I worked there employees payed cost on everything, not cost +5% or anything like that... straight cost.. good thing I lived with my mother at the time.. I bought alot of crap). The profit margin on printer cartridges is huge as well, but the prices are regulated by the manufacturers.

So in the end, they charge very little profit on what usually ends up being a one off purchase (how often do people replace entire PC's and laptops), but higher margin on replacement parts and accessories.. its how they stay in business (although CompUSA apparently had some issues staying in business, but microcenter seems to be doing okay)

[BikerMiker]

Bike shops are limited to what they can do because of MSRP and online stuff so our overall profit margins are low. Lower than you'd expect.

mike

[DaveG]

I'm total DIY (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/classic.cfm), I liked this model because it came in stainless steel with a brushed finish. It's amazing how much of a difference there is between SS and the composite and aluminum ones, you can really tell a difference in your espresso. I won't even get into the Pannarello style frother...

thread jack over, couldn't resist ;)

I recently busted out our home espresso machine and have been making some cappuccino's at home. Not quite as good as the stuff I can buy, but pretty tasty.

Is there really _that_ much of a difference in machines?

[riderx]

I'm total DIY (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Gaggia/classic.cfm), I liked this model because it came in stainless steel with a brushed finish. It's amazing how much of a difference there is between SS and the composite and aluminum ones, you can really tell a difference in your espresso. I won't even get into the Pannarello style frother...

thread jack over, couldn't resist ;)You should be using the equivalent of the fixed gear model (http://www.wholelattelove.com/Bonjour/cafemilano_stovetop.cfm) of espresso makers ;)

[jabberwocky]

I often wonder why one of our popular local shops doesn't open a web store. Tie it to QBP or BTI or whatever, you can browse, order a part (at a modest markup) and the store orders it and ships it when it arrives. The profit margins would be smaller but you could make up for it in volume, and the increased volume might allow you to lower prices a bit at the brick & mortar store too. And if its all ordered, you wouldn't need to stock anything which should decrease costs quite a bit.

A lot of the places I order from online are pretty small shops (Red Barn Bikes, who I've bought both my Turners from has two employees including the owner). Speedgoat is a pretty big shop, but they are a local shop, not some huge corporate entity. AEBike is a local shop. A lot of these places are probably smaller than many of our local shops. I know that this is an expensive area to have a storefront (and employees), but I know if I could order from a local shop online, with pricing within 5-10% of internet pricing I would do it in a heartbeat.

[drewdane]

No, people pay $4.00 for a liquid dessert with whipped cream on top. Any caffinated beverage that requires hyphenated words to order is not a "coffee".

Stuck-up coffee Snob: "Yes, I would like a half-caf grande soy low-foam macchiato, extra hot"

Real Coffee Drinker: " Large coffee please"
Stuck-up Starbucks Employee "You mean Venti Coffee"
Real Coffee Drinker: "Only in Italy, ****head!"
I fixed your typo.

[Dirt]

I often wonder why one of our popular local shops doesn't open a web store. Tie it to QBP or BTI or whatever, you can browse, order a part (at a modest markup) and the store orders it and ships it when it arrives. The profit margins would be smaller but you could make up for it in volume, and the increased volume might allow you to lower prices a bit at the brick & mortar store too. And if its all ordered, you wouldn't need to stock anything which should decrease costs quite a bit.

A lot of the places I order from online are pretty small shops (Red Barn Bikes, who I've bought both my Turners from has two employees including the owner). Speedgoat is a pretty big shop, but they are a local shop, not some huge corporate entity. AEBike is a local shop. A lot of these places are probably smaller than many of our local shops. I know that this is an expensive area to have a storefront (and employees), but I know if I could order from a local shop online, with pricing within 5-10% of internet pricing I would do it in a heartbeat.

Many of the mail-order shops that you see in magazines or on the net either are or were small, local shops.

Most local shops order from QBP either once or twice per week. During slow seasons, it might be less often or as-needed. I'd guess that if there were demand for more frequent ordering, that they'd do it.

If I recall correctly, orders placed on Tuesday are usually delivered and on the shelf by Friday afternoon. Orders Thursday or Friday will be on the shelf early the next week.

Speedgoat is an interesting place and a very interesting business model. They've been very successful in a completitive market. They do maintain a local shop and provide great service in it, but they really were built from the ground up for mail order.

[BikerMiker]

Any shop that has their site hosted by SmartEtailing (most in this area) have a direct link to QBP inventory on the nav bar titled 'Special Order Catalogue' or something. I know citybikes.com does. Some people allow you to sell online, others don't. Plus, all of our pricing on our site is high and I'm not exactly sure why but our in-store system isn't sync'd up.

We talk about in-store delivery of online purchases, but going to a fulfillment operation (mailorder) is WAY different than a retail store. You need dedicated staff and facilities to do that well. If you don't do it right, you shouldn't do it. That's where we are with it. Plus, competing nationally isn't what we are trying to do. We want to support local DC-area stuff and people. We don't feel like we could do a good job HELPING people make decisions about stuff online for other parts of the country and that is one of our great strengths is helping people. Just pushing out product has never been our goal. We always talk about service first and the product is just part of the business of doing that. Most good shops make that prioritization which is why we don't compete on price...

How's that?

mike